Topic: American''s Unfair Treatment of TWA Family

[GGpillow]

It seems this debate will never end. Now I understand how TWA folks probably feel they got the raw end of this deal, I mean, after all, they did. But that's life, more importantly, that's business. Some of you make it sound horrible that AA would wish to profit from their aquisition. I mean, they didn't buy it because they wanted to keep TWA ramp/cs/fa/pilots in good paying jobs. They bought it to try and give themselves an advantage in the marketplace. This IS the airline industry. Stuff like this happens. It's not cool for the folks involved sometimes, but that is completely irrelevant to the folks who have to answer to shareholders. This can happen to any airline guys. Someday it may be AA'ers wishing they had the big tub o vasoline. Could be my airline. It may unfair, but life can be unfair. I don't see how it's AA's fault that TWA made poor decisions that put themselves in a position to be acquired.

 

[Tharseo]

Because the pay is good and it beats working for a living.

 

[Connected1]

I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, but...

Could someone please explain to me why you allow your livelihood to depend on how well a patchwork group of your peers can negotiate with a bunch of guys with calculators that would like nothing better than to see all of you working for minimum wage? How can you go to work on a day-to-day basis knowing that the last raise you received had nothing to do with the service level you provided? Worse yet, how can you go to work knowing that you are hopelessly attached to your company?

My compensation may not be all that it could be, but I can say with confidence that if I like my job and I do it well, there will be someplace I can go to add value tomorrow. If I want to move up in the ranks, I don't have to curry favor with the public or anyone else but my superiors. I never have to look over my shoulder.

I'm sure there's something in it for you, I just don't know what it is. But if this is the career decision you made, everyone, whether acquiree or acquirer, must realize that risk and politics are the keys to your success and failure.

 

[bagsmasher]

I am so sick of hearing how ex-Twaer's have been mistreated. I'll bet the ex-employee's of Vanguard wish someone had picked them up so they could gripe about their new employer. Also AA did not force TWA into bankruptcy. This was the only choice to entice anyone to be interested in them. Good thing there was an airline worried about who was the largest in the world, or this whole thing might have never happened.
I followed the lead of my union and was against this whole thing from the beginning. Carty was the first to offer full company seniority to get this deal done. Right there he was putting TWAer's interest ahead of his own employee's. Nice way to create a "culture" huh? Make plans for the future, because it looks as if the TWAer's are intent on taking AA down the same path as TWA.

 

[Get Over It Already]

The only people I feel for right now are the Ozark people. They had no choice but to hitch their wagon to TWA, and look what it got them.

 

[FA Mikey]

calflyboy:You see Mikey you are so blinded by tunnelvision that you don't realize that TWA owned/leased planes, certain route authorities, slots, gates, equipment, and real estate, have monetary value.

Add in TW's debt obligation for these leased planes, gates, equipment, and real estate, I no longer see the money, profits and great value.

calflyboy: Regardless if profit is being made from these assets, the fact is AA gained something that they otherwise would not have had. We don't know if TWA would have ended in bankruptcy court again on its own. Sure the probability was extremely high, but the fact of the matter is AA intervened before bankruptcy was filed and forced TWA into bankruptcy prior to acquiring assets.

Compton said as he was leaving Carty's office, I guess we will just have to file BK again. Then, yes AA became interested. It was the path TW was on and couldn't get off. Lets not forget TW had been to this court twice before, AA also had to provide TW with 2 DIP loans in the process to complete this thrid filing and keep TW planes in the air.

calflyboyart of the asset purchase included the offering of jobs to the unionized employees.

It was and they did.

calflyboy:Historically, when two unionized airline seniority lists were to integrated a standard was used. The two unions would sit down and hammer out some sort of integration agreement, and take any unresolved issues to arbitration. Then the lists were merged after a decision was rendered, typically. I know this is a gross simplification of the whole process. Throughout the many mergers/acquisitions in the airline industry seniority was respected in some degree by unionized groups regardless whether they were independent or AFL-CIO afiliated unions. Sometimes seniority was respected even when a group was not unionized.

Historically, maybe so. Today things are much different than the 70's and allegany/mohawk merger. Ultimately its up to the membership of a given union, what course to take in the combining of 2 labor groups. AFL-CIO will do it one way. Non afilliated unions maybe a different way. Just because everyone else does it this way. Doesn't mean we have to as well. Growing up my parents taught me, I wouldn't always get the same things and privliges that my friends did.

calflyboy:The fact of the matter is your union never sat down with the TWA FA union to even try to negotiate a seniority integration of the two lists. Your union and AA told the TWA FA's this is the way it's going to be. Gee, so much for the Allegheny-Mohawk labor protection provisions that was a standard for unionized seniority integrations.

IAM did not make it easy. There was hardly a welcoming from your side as well. IAM was trying to flex its muscle and make APFA submit to its ideas.

calflyboy:Mikey, I know you feel what was offered to the TWA FA's was generous, i.e. full pay seniority, retirement credit, etc. Let's face it, integration of seniority lists are all about BIDDING SENIORITY!

No not really. Its one aspect. APFA could have gone at it any number of ways. Even to insist that that pay start from the begining step 1. Even though AA has control over that part of seniority. APFA could have tried to convince them to offer less. After all there own employees who transfer in dont get as much as EVERY TWAer got. You guys always seem to forget that you have 100% occupational seniority in 2 bases. You guys got seniority, in the bases you brought over.

calflyboy:The position that you and others from your ilk have so adamantly upheld throughout this process is ARROGANT, morally reprehensible, and goes against the priciples of trade unionism!

I will try to look up the part about unionism, and how when a company in a BK fire sale employees are offered employment to those who are about to go to the street. That the surviving companys employees should lay themselves out to be walked on.

calflyboy:The integration of the TWA and AA employees is an example of how NOT to do a seniority integration.

So says the IAM and the TWA employees who were offered jobs through the bankruptcy procedings. Because in past, MERGERS of aircarriers who's unions both represented by the AFL-CIO worked through an intergration doesn't it will always be that way. Its not done like that with people I know outside this industry. So much for the idea thats how its always done and so much for thats how everyone does it.

calflyboy:Unionism, especially amongst airline workers, was all about "all for one, one for all" in the past, then the AA-TWA integration came along. What you and your organization have shown that it is all about me, me, me, let the rest be damned.

What Me and my organization have shown. Is that in a group even this large. The will of the MEMBERSHIP (you know, the dues paying people)will be done.

calflyboy:You and your group have ably demonstrated, by swallowing the company kool-aid, that you will stop at nothing to protect your kozy little fortress, to try and keep it impermeable rather than show some respect for your fellow unionized brothers and sisters that are now dues paying members of that selfish organization that you belong to.

Thats right APFA demonstrated that the will of the DUES PAYING MEMBERS is what we will acomplish and fight for. You nor any other TW employee were dues paying members. Your will should not be considered. Until you became a member and began paying dues. Your concern was not ours.

calflyboy:All your organization had to do was submit the whole matter to an arbitrator for determination. As you can see the TWA mechanics and rampers decision is far from what they wanted, but at the very least, it was heard by third party neutral.

Yes we could have done that. But why? It would be only to your benefit. If you got nothing you tried. If you got anything it was a plus. For me the APFA member, I am not about to negotiate for someone another carrier. Its about protecting your members and there rights and privliges.The arbitrator gave seniority to the detriment of the current employees. Even against what it said in there CBA.

calflyboy:Finally, because of the acquisition of TWA, AA is considered the largest airline in the world, whatever that means. I can only speak from a flight attendant perspective, your organization was once envied amongst FA groups in the industry, especially when your group orchestrated the '93 strike. For which I walked your picket line as show of solidarity for you and the AA FA's. Not anymore, the actions that your organization have displayed have been pathetic and despicable. I realize that my way too long diatribe won't mean s**t in the end, but at least I won't live with the guilt of putting senior, tenored employees, regardless of airline origin, on the streets. Remember the adage? What goes around comes around. []

We had a succesful strike against AA in 93. We were grateful for all the support from unions and people alike. Your idea of now, not supporting the APFA is sad. Youll take the protection work rules and pay rates and sit on the side and do nothing. How does that benefit yourself, or your career. I dont want to see any employee on the street. No one does. I would feel Guilt putting myself on the street, for someone who has worked here for about a year. I should feel guilty for people who worked for a airline already twice in bankruptcy court, losing money through the greatest boom time our country and our industry has seen? I should feel guilty for people who waited out for the other shoe to fall, for the failure or purchase of TW? You know who I have to feel really bad for. The people who came from TW before the buyout. The ones who are on second and thrid step pay. Who face a layoff as well. The ones who made the hard choice, started over, the ones who aren't looking to gain something on the backs of people who were already here.[/quote]

 

[CALFLYBOY]

You are true to form Mikey with your arogant self serving tit for tat. The self righteous BS that you continue to spew was expected.

<<Your idea of now, not supporting the APFA is sad. Youll take the protection work rules and pay rates and sit on the side and do nothing.>>

Uh excuse me??? I never said I wouldn't support MY union. I simply do not support APFA and their detestable behavior. Give me a few good reasons of why I should support APFA's positions after my fellow union brothers and sisters were NEVER treated with dignity and respect for their years of service at TWA? BTW, lol, I have never sat "on the side" as you say. You'll always find me in the thick of it. [:]

 

[QQ3270]

because you might be without a job if there is not enough leaves taken remember this is in our contract leaves first than layoffs.So hopefully there is enough leaves taken to void layoffs and hopefully the senior people The Membership are not pissed off at you and your group and decide not to take the leave just to give you the boot to the street be happy and pray that you still have a job when this is over and done

 

[bagsmasher]

The only way these TWAer's would have been happy is to give them EVERYTHING, which is what they got for TWU represented employees at STL and MCIE. If the LLC pilots and F/A's would have got EVERYTHING system-wide, there would be very few AAer's able to bid the good trips out of DFW, ORD, JFK, etc. The problem is that even though they were a much smaller carrier, they had many "old-timers." How many original AAer's do you see with 25+ years with AA? Well go over to the overhaul base and try to find a TWAer with lees than 25 years on the day shift. Don Carty may have bent over and kissed you guys squarely on the sphincter to get this deal done, but don't expect the same treatment from his employees that were getting screwed by this deal.

 

[FA Mikey]

calflyboy:Give me a few good reasons of why I should support APFA's positions after my fellow union brothers and sisters were NEVER treated with dignity and respect for their years of service at TWA?

Its in your own self intrest to do that. I know you guys know about that. Tell us. Why On earth would you expect this union and the employees of this compny. To step aside and take a back seat. Why should you get credit for service with the compition, When inter company transfers dont? Been with AA, transfer in, go to the bottom. Been with Eagle, transfer in, go to the bottom.

 

[TOOLS]

Well Bags your wrong! I work at the overhaul base (MCIE) WHEN I'M NOT ON LAYOFF. There are alot of employees at that base on day's that have less than 25 years of service (co sen date of 1977). The fear factor for you and your kind is so huge that you belive and pass on all this misinformation to try and justify your irrational behavior. The reason for the high seniority in the old TWA system is because of the inability of the senior employees to afford retirement on the meager amount of benifits they where intitled to. This was the result of people like Carl Ican raping and pillaging these hardworking men and women out of greed and self intrest. Unfortunatly many AA people would stand and cheer for uncle CARL.

 

[Boomer]

1AA,
The TWU entered into Binding Arbitration.

Article 1

(h) Merger, Purchase, or Acquisition of Another Company.

In the event of a merger, purchase, or acquisition of another company, involving that entire company or a substantial portion of that company, by the Company, the TWU and the Company will meet to discuss the merger, purchase, or acquisition...

(1) The integration of the seniority lists...
(2) The rates of pay, rules, and working...
(3) The parties agree to submit to final and binding arbitration by an arbitrator approved by the National Mediation Board... there will be only one such arbitration proceeding which will be the sole and exclusive remedy for all such disputes.

 

[onceoza]

[[/quote] AFL-CIO will do it one way. Non afilliated unions maybe a different way. Just because everyone else does it this way. Doesn't mean we have to as well.

I beg to differ with you. If you ever expect to get support from those affiliated unions, you do it their way. And don't think you'll never need their support..never say never.

 

[FA Mikey]

Is that a threat? Sorry man, the AFL-CIO (IAM) sold you down the river and wants to blame everyone but themselves for it. I am not sure what we will be losing by not giving in and rolling over for the IAM and there screw ups. Will the AFL-CIO send there members over our picket line? All we got was some vocal support from them during our strike. To let us sink or be taken advantage of, weakens them as well. They will support us and defend us no more no less than in the past.

 

[Rhino]

AMR made an investment in TWA. It must of seemed like a good deal for all at the time. It made AA the largest carrier, able to compete with the proposed UAL/US.

Now it looks like a bad investment.

Maybe a couple of years from now it will pay off.

I look forward to the day when all AAers are back at work and the message boards will revolve around what new service will be added.