Well here we all are, in the intensive care unit all watching and wondering if U will pull through yet another critical juncture of its long and shaky history. On one side of the waiting room we have the Yes Votes and on the other side we have the No votes, all standing here looking somber and worried. Everyone in the room can plainly see how badly wounded U is, even her colors are all different shades of blue, red and silver. We all realize that the mighty ALPA who is the stronger of the entire bunch tried their very best to save her and themselves. ALPA ended up at 85% as did the AFA, then all the others followed suite, hoping they did what was possible to save the patient lying here breathing heavy and labored. The IAM membership is left standing here alone with the critical patient U. Trouble is, the IAM membership is not feeling very well themselves as is evident by their wobbly stance , which doesn’t bode well for the dying patient U’s chances of survival. No matter how much fact medicine the IAM membership receives it doesn’t seem to make the wobbly IAM membership any more surefooted, it’s still very wobbly. The doctors don’t really know just what to do for U if a wobbly IAM membership can’t be fixed. Maybe it’s a new undiscovered disease that is affecting the woes here. The doctors have never seen nor have a clue on how to diagnose this strange disease. 85% medicine was supposed to work, that is what ALPA and U figured anyway, and everyone followed their lead. But, with this new and undiagnosed disease that the IAM membership has come down with, well it really created a mystery for everyone who wants U to survive. Shouting, screaming, pleading, reasoning, talking, crying, accusing, and all kinds of other ings one can imagine are not working. Even when they realize the T/A can be changed AFTER voted in as long as 85% is maintained, doesn’t work. The IAM membership has a new undiagnosed disease, like the legionnaires disease or some strange new breed of mystery disease. Maybe we should call the CDC in Atlanta, they can help as much as anyone else can. All they are doing is catching mosquitoes right now anyway.
U in The Intensive Care Unit
- Thread starter cavalier
- Start date
RealityCheck
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 289
- 0
The nitroglycerin that CWA and IAM are trying to inject to resuscitate US isn't going to work, it's going to blow sky hi. It's time to pull the plug.
repeet
Veteran
Cavalier,
The problem is that the wrong kinds of doctors are trying to fix the problem. The membership of the Mechanics and Related group are all suffering from severe depression.
You can be told that you're stupid, unskilled, and easily replaceable for only so long before unresolved anger takes its toll.
For example, how could the Machinists at US Airways be angry at the prospect of their Union representing the mechanics at the yet unborn Mid Atlantic Airways? Yet, they are furious. They (we) feel that the I.A.M. is so insensitive and brutish, that they would rather destroy their present job rather than inflict, involuntarily, the I.A.M. on the future mechanics of MDA.
An example of the I.A.M. insensitiveness is Receipt and Dispatch (Pushbacks). We have made it quite clear that we are willing to give up jobs for pay. The I.A.M. being experts have refused this option and inflicted us with as many low paying jobs as they can assemble (including MDA).
Being squeezed by the company on one side (which is expected) and ignored by the Union on the other side (which is unforgivable) has resulted in a self-destructive manic depression.
So far the cure from both the company and the Union is to apply more pressure.
My prayer is that Tuesday is a good day for us mechanics and we vote yes and give Dave a chance.
We will get rid of the I.A.M. because, they have demonstrated repeatedly through the years that, they are simply clueless!
The problem is that the wrong kinds of doctors are trying to fix the problem. The membership of the Mechanics and Related group are all suffering from severe depression.
You can be told that you're stupid, unskilled, and easily replaceable for only so long before unresolved anger takes its toll.
For example, how could the Machinists at US Airways be angry at the prospect of their Union representing the mechanics at the yet unborn Mid Atlantic Airways? Yet, they are furious. They (we) feel that the I.A.M. is so insensitive and brutish, that they would rather destroy their present job rather than inflict, involuntarily, the I.A.M. on the future mechanics of MDA.
An example of the I.A.M. insensitiveness is Receipt and Dispatch (Pushbacks). We have made it quite clear that we are willing to give up jobs for pay. The I.A.M. being experts have refused this option and inflicted us with as many low paying jobs as they can assemble (including MDA).
Being squeezed by the company on one side (which is expected) and ignored by the Union on the other side (which is unforgivable) has resulted in a self-destructive manic depression.
So far the cure from both the company and the Union is to apply more pressure.
My prayer is that Tuesday is a good day for us mechanics and we vote yes and give Dave a chance.
We will get rid of the I.A.M. because, they have demonstrated repeatedly through the years that, they are simply clueless!
av8orwife
Member
You may want to pull the plug and be done with it. Fine. But there are thousands who would like to see U survive. So you could do us all a favor and vote yes or just quit.
How selfish and self serving can you be... I have many friends that work for U, where both the husband and wife work for this Company (reservations & mechanics). Many of us have families and childern to feed. Do you think that $1,000 a month less COBRA will feed many a family. There are 36,000 employees that depend on this Company for a living. Think about them. It's not about the loss of a job it's about the loss of thousands and thousands.
How selfish and self serving can you be... I have many friends that work for U, where both the husband and wife work for this Company (reservations & mechanics). Many of us have families and childern to feed. Do you think that $1,000 a month less COBRA will feed many a family. There are 36,000 employees that depend on this Company for a living. Think about them. It's not about the loss of a job it's about the loss of thousands and thousands.
[
Repeet, I don't necessarily agree with your comment of getting rid of the IAM but your dead on the money as far as a yes vote.
For the most part the membership doesn't realize a no vote leaves them at the company's mercy and if the company is allowed to impose a contract on us there will be few of us around to vote on which union represents us.
You have to remember U claimed bankruptcy while in negotiations with the IAM time was no longer on the unions side, there was very little they could say or do once they filed. Believe me we could have fared allot worst and if the no votes win we will.
Repeet, I don't necessarily agree with your comment of getting rid of the IAM but your dead on the money as far as a yes vote.
For the most part the membership doesn't realize a no vote leaves them at the company's mercy and if the company is allowed to impose a contract on us there will be few of us around to vote on which union represents us.
You have to remember U claimed bankruptcy while in negotiations with the IAM time was no longer on the unions side, there was very little they could say or do once they filed. Believe me we could have fared allot worst and if the no votes win we will.
RealityCheck
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 289
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/14/2002 5:17:23 PM av8orwife wrote:
Reality Check:
I am not telling anyone how to vote, nor would my opinion make any difference. Although I vent my frustration at the situation. As you probably can tell people who post on this board have already made up their mind and I doubt any comments made by me or you would change anyone's mind.
I understand that this whole topic is like reglion and politics, no matter what side you take no one can ever agree. As many a war has been started over religion and politics only to leave the vast destruction of civilians and cities.
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
And know you don't know me from Adam. But my husband has given 17 years of his career to this Company, my best friend is a flight attendent and has give 13 years to this Company, other good friends a mechanic has given 16 years to this company and his wife in reservations has over 13 years, etc.... Many people including yourself have given a piece of themselves to this Company. It would be sad to see if it was just a waste of time....
----------------
[/blockquote]
I have dozens of friends in the business too, but I am not going to sell myself or my conscience down the river, just to save other peoples jobs, including those in management.Doesn't matter that I or anyone who votes NO may have alternatives lined up.I must vote for what I think is right for me. This TA is not right with me based on the major 3 points I mentioned above. It would not have cost a cent to work on 2 out of those 3 sticking points. 1-You want to pay me for 5 sick days annually in your budget, let me use them. Pay me without penalty. This is not in the contract.2-Stop or revise the gustapo h-e-l-l hole management has created with monitoring talk time and work time stats. Avg. Revenue per hour, per call, per week, is what counts.If it takes us 20 to 40pct longer than these ridiculous non customer oriented goals to bring in that much additional equivalent revenue, we should not be penalized, cited. talked to, or written up about it.The current pricing and reissue structure is still complicated, and even moreso lately, and the time parameters placed on us to sort thru that mess daily are becoming more and more unacceptable. This modification also was not in the contract.There are better more employer friendly ways to track productivity, and no one even attempted to lobby for this in the negotiations to offset some of the pain of the givebacks. But hey, we got quarter hour swaps. YIPEE!!
The internet tech desk option is probably the worst part of the deal and is sealing my vote.
----------------
On 9/14/2002 5:17:23 PM av8orwife wrote:
Reality Check:
I am not telling anyone how to vote, nor would my opinion make any difference. Although I vent my frustration at the situation. As you probably can tell people who post on this board have already made up their mind and I doubt any comments made by me or you would change anyone's mind.
I understand that this whole topic is like reglion and politics, no matter what side you take no one can ever agree. As many a war has been started over religion and politics only to leave the vast destruction of civilians and cities.
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
And know you don't know me from Adam. But my husband has given 17 years of his career to this Company, my best friend is a flight attendent and has give 13 years to this Company, other good friends a mechanic has given 16 years to this company and his wife in reservations has over 13 years, etc.... Many people including yourself have given a piece of themselves to this Company. It would be sad to see if it was just a waste of time....
----------------
[/blockquote]
I have dozens of friends in the business too, but I am not going to sell myself or my conscience down the river, just to save other peoples jobs, including those in management.Doesn't matter that I or anyone who votes NO may have alternatives lined up.I must vote for what I think is right for me. This TA is not right with me based on the major 3 points I mentioned above. It would not have cost a cent to work on 2 out of those 3 sticking points. 1-You want to pay me for 5 sick days annually in your budget, let me use them. Pay me without penalty. This is not in the contract.2-Stop or revise the gustapo h-e-l-l hole management has created with monitoring talk time and work time stats. Avg. Revenue per hour, per call, per week, is what counts.If it takes us 20 to 40pct longer than these ridiculous non customer oriented goals to bring in that much additional equivalent revenue, we should not be penalized, cited. talked to, or written up about it.The current pricing and reissue structure is still complicated, and even moreso lately, and the time parameters placed on us to sort thru that mess daily are becoming more and more unacceptable. This modification also was not in the contract.There are better more employer friendly ways to track productivity, and no one even attempted to lobby for this in the negotiations to offset some of the pain of the givebacks. But hey, we got quarter hour swaps. YIPEE!!
The internet tech desk option is probably the worst part of the deal and is sealing my vote.
av8orwife
Member
Reality Check:
I am not telling anyone how to vote, nor would my opinion make any difference. Although I vent my frustration at the situation. As you probably can tell people who post on this board have already made up their mind and I doubt any comments made by me or you would change anyone's mind.
I understand that this whole topic is like reglion and politics, no matter what side you take no one can ever agree. As many a war has been started over religion and politics only to leave the vast destruction of civilians and cities.
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
And know you don't know me from Adam. But my husband has given 17 years of his career to this Company, my best friend is a flight attendent and has give 13 years to this Company, other good friends a mechanic has given 16 years to this company and his wife in reservations has over 13 years, etc.... Many people including yourself have given a piece of themselves to this Company. It would be sad to see if it was just a waste of time....
I am not telling anyone how to vote, nor would my opinion make any difference. Although I vent my frustration at the situation. As you probably can tell people who post on this board have already made up their mind and I doubt any comments made by me or you would change anyone's mind.
I understand that this whole topic is like reglion and politics, no matter what side you take no one can ever agree. As many a war has been started over religion and politics only to leave the vast destruction of civilians and cities.
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
And know you don't know me from Adam. But my husband has given 17 years of his career to this Company, my best friend is a flight attendent and has give 13 years to this Company, other good friends a mechanic has given 16 years to this company and his wife in reservations has over 13 years, etc.... Many people including yourself have given a piece of themselves to this Company. It would be sad to see if it was just a waste of time....
RealityCheck
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 289
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/14/2002 4
43 PM av8orwife wrote:
You may want to pull the plug and be done with it. Fine. But there are thousands who would like to see U survive. So you could do us all a favor and vote yes or just quit.
How selfish and self serving can you be... I have many friends that work for U, where both the husband and wife work for this Company (reservations & mechanics). Many of us have families and childern to feed. Do you think that $1,000 a month less COBRA will feed many a family. There are 36,000 employees that depend on this Company for a living. Think about them. It's not about the loss of a job it's about the loss of thousands and thousands.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Excuse me? I don't know you from ADAM or EVE, nor do I owe you sqwat. The democratic process allows me to vote for what's right for me and my family, not for you and yours. Not for my friends. Not for my enemies. Not for my supervisor or office admins. For Me. I'm not holding a gun to your head and demanding you to vote NO, you don't have the right to hold one to mine to vote YES. Those are the indisputeable facts.Next thing you know, you're going to tell people who to vote for Governor or President? I don't think so.The company wants more than I am willing to give up, giving me 1/4 hour swaps was not enough crumbs to sway my vote. I can settle for the pay cut and vacation holiday cuts, and the increased meds,but the drastically reduced sick leave penalty to use it system doesnt wash, nor the internet reclassification. Nor the continued agent battering of weekly statistical analysis of talk time/work time for doing the best CS job we can provide. My job is at risk within 6 months , either by total dissolution, or reduction to 13 an hour, or moving. It ain't gonna happen either of those 3 ways. Not from this old timer.
----------------
On 9/14/2002 4
43 PM av8orwife wrote: You may want to pull the plug and be done with it. Fine. But there are thousands who would like to see U survive. So you could do us all a favor and vote yes or just quit.
How selfish and self serving can you be... I have many friends that work for U, where both the husband and wife work for this Company (reservations & mechanics). Many of us have families and childern to feed. Do you think that $1,000 a month less COBRA will feed many a family. There are 36,000 employees that depend on this Company for a living. Think about them. It's not about the loss of a job it's about the loss of thousands and thousands.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Excuse me? I don't know you from ADAM or EVE, nor do I owe you sqwat. The democratic process allows me to vote for what's right for me and my family, not for you and yours. Not for my friends. Not for my enemies. Not for my supervisor or office admins. For Me. I'm not holding a gun to your head and demanding you to vote NO, you don't have the right to hold one to mine to vote YES. Those are the indisputeable facts.Next thing you know, you're going to tell people who to vote for Governor or President? I don't think so.The company wants more than I am willing to give up, giving me 1/4 hour swaps was not enough crumbs to sway my vote. I can settle for the pay cut and vacation holiday cuts, and the increased meds,but the drastically reduced sick leave penalty to use it system doesnt wash, nor the internet reclassification. Nor the continued agent battering of weekly statistical analysis of talk time/work time for doing the best CS job we can provide. My job is at risk within 6 months , either by total dissolution, or reduction to 13 an hour, or moving. It ain't gonna happen either of those 3 ways. Not from this old timer.
Jet Mechanic
Member
- Sep 13, 2002
- 50
- 0
On 9/14/2002 4
15 PM Retired1 wrote:
cavalier-- Are you saying the furniture can be moved around even after Tuesday as long as there is a yes vote at that time and the money figure doesnt change?
Cavalier,
You answered in the affirmative to this question. Where does it state the company will change the items and still achieve the 85% amount? I don't see it in my papers! What incentive does the company have to make any changes IF (and that's a big IF) the vote is yes? There is no incentive: NADA! The ONLY way to give them an incentive is to vote NO and have them hammer out something different.
I also notice a real change in attitude here. More are calling for people to quit before the vote or vote yes and then resign. You can tell we're getting closer to the cliff and folks are getting nervous. Really sounds desperate. I wouldn't miss the opportunity to vote and no one else should either. Heck, I hope every mechanic and related who is off on Tuesdays makes it their business to vote and then hang around to witness the vote count. Given the charged climate I worry about vote tampering.
Voting NO on Tuesday and honoring others rights to cast their vote...
Jet Mechanic
15 PM Retired1 wrote: cavalier-- Are you saying the furniture can be moved around even after Tuesday as long as there is a yes vote at that time and the money figure doesnt change?
Cavalier,
You answered in the affirmative to this question. Where does it state the company will change the items and still achieve the 85% amount? I don't see it in my papers! What incentive does the company have to make any changes IF (and that's a big IF) the vote is yes? There is no incentive: NADA! The ONLY way to give them an incentive is to vote NO and have them hammer out something different.
I also notice a real change in attitude here. More are calling for people to quit before the vote or vote yes and then resign. You can tell we're getting closer to the cliff and folks are getting nervous. Really sounds desperate. I wouldn't miss the opportunity to vote and no one else should either. Heck, I hope every mechanic and related who is off on Tuesdays makes it their business to vote and then hang around to witness the vote count. Given the charged climate I worry about vote tampering.
Voting NO on Tuesday and honoring others rights to cast their vote...
Jet Mechanic
Jet Mechanic
Member
- Sep 13, 2002
- 50
- 0
On 9/14/2002 5:17:23 PM av8orwife wrote:
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
av8orwife,
If you, I and the thousands of U employees realize this, wouldn't it behoove management to realize this and attempt to negotiate a more palatable proposal? Does management REALLY care about the 36000+ employees of this airline? I think not when I hear Mr. Nardello proudly announce his take of the $6 million in bonus money.
One of the ways I have to express my thoughts on this entirely unacceptable proposal is to VOTE. The pieces must fall where they might.
Jet Mechanic
My only point is that by voting No could result in the liquidiation of the Company and I just feel that no one understands this risk and the impact it will have on many many people. I also undstand that the Contract you have to vote on SUCKS and does not address some real concerns. I know it is extreamly flawed and yes, is really unaceptable in its current form. So I do understand that by voting No you are expressing your RIGHT to say that the contract is unacceptable. I do get it.
av8orwife,
If you, I and the thousands of U employees realize this, wouldn't it behoove management to realize this and attempt to negotiate a more palatable proposal? Does management REALLY care about the 36000+ employees of this airline? I think not when I hear Mr. Nardello proudly announce his take of the $6 million in bonus money.
One of the ways I have to express my thoughts on this entirely unacceptable proposal is to VOTE. The pieces must fall where they might.
Jet Mechanic
N513AU
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 219
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 9/14/2002 415 PM Retired1 wrote:
cavalier-- Are you saying the furniture can be moved around even after Tuesday as long as there is a yes vote at that time and the money figure doesnt change?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Heh! In theory, yes. Do you think we will see the company back at the table with the IAM until 2010 or 12 or 14? They are gonna take their bit and run and won't ever talk to us again.
----------------
On 9/14/2002 4
15 PM Retired1 wrote: cavalier-- Are you saying the furniture can be moved around even after Tuesday as long as there is a yes vote at that time and the money figure doesnt change?
----------------
[/blockquote]
Heh! In theory, yes. Do you think we will see the company back at the table with the IAM until 2010 or 12 or 14? They are gonna take their bit and run and won't ever talk to us again.
[P]Jet Mechanic,[/P]
[P][STRONG][FONT size=2]There will be no more negotiations.[/FONT][/STRONG] That being fact, what good does it do to vote no? You either give this company its best opportunity to survive, or you pull the plug. I just don't understand the pull the plug mentality. You're letting your emotions get in the way of logic.[/P]
[P][FONT color=#ff0066 size=3]Vote YES. Let's see if we can keep this company running.[/FONT][/P]
[P][STRONG][FONT size=2]There will be no more negotiations.[/FONT][/STRONG] That being fact, what good does it do to vote no? You either give this company its best opportunity to survive, or you pull the plug. I just don't understand the pull the plug mentality. You're letting your emotions get in the way of logic.[/P]
[P][FONT color=#ff0066 size=3]Vote YES. Let's see if we can keep this company running.[/FONT][/P]
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #15
NYPD
Thanks for your common sense.
TO ALL THE NO VOTERS, that possibly face a furlough regardless of the voting outcome. If you feel a no vote won‘t bite you, think again because you just voted away any hopes of severance you WOULD have received. No vote=no severance, and no possibility whatsoever of a recall and brighter days. Don’t tell me the judge will hear your cry of mercy when the other cries are 50 decibel points louder from the people U is indebted to!
Thanks for your common sense.
TO ALL THE NO VOTERS, that possibly face a furlough regardless of the voting outcome. If you feel a no vote won‘t bite you, think again because you just voted away any hopes of severance you WOULD have received. No vote=no severance, and no possibility whatsoever of a recall and brighter days. Don’t tell me the judge will hear your cry of mercy when the other cries are 50 decibel points louder from the people U is indebted to!
