UAL A&p's and related have a T/A

[700UW]

We took a stand at US Airways during the second bankruptcy, had our contract abrogated, lost out pension, and had 46% of maintenance laid off.

You cant strike when your contract is abrogated.

So tell me what were we suppose to do?

I guess you all need to familiarize yourself with Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code, you have to negotiate and if you dont reach an agreement your CBA will be abrogated.

 

[FWAAA]

We took a stand at US Airways during the second bankruptcy, had our contract abrogated, lost out pension, and had 46% of maintenance laid off.

You cant strike when your contract is abrogated.

So tell me what were we suppose to do?

I guess you all need to familiarize yourself with Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code, you have to negotiate and if you dont reach an agreement your CBA will be abrogated.

Exactly. Your post demonstrates the foolishness of employees at money-losing airlines constantly blaming the workgroups at other money-losing airlines for the paycuts and workrule changes and headcount reductions. Employees at AA, UA, US, DL, NW and CO have all faced concessions.

 

[xUT]

Uhh, the UAL mechanics approved their concessions at the same time as the "approval" by AA mechanics of their concessions. The IAM voted to accept the concessions on April 30, 2003; AA's TWU approved the concessions about the same day.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10E13FE34590C728CDDAC0894DB404482

Perhaps USAir or CAL mechanics are to blame for the plight of the AA or UA mechanics, but AA employees didn't cause the UA concessions.

Without further ratification...

 

[AP Tech]

From someone in a Usair Mech's shoes the proposal does not look so bad. Was just comparing with the IAM negotiated Industry Lagging POS contract they have for another year!!!! Looking over the chart comparing the total pay for AMT's, IAM represented AMT's come in dead last...hard to argue that!!!

 

[700UW]

Yes but you have to remember US filed bankruptcy twice within two years and have a CBA abrogated.

 

[lineguy43]

AMFA isnt the answer, they blew it at NW, they represent WN and are still using the IBT CBA, with just improvements to wages.

Who else do they represent?

I suppose the IAM is the best answer?....I would rather be non-union then be with the IAM. The whole time I was with the IAM mechanics at most majors a topped out mechanic made maybe 2 dollars an hour over a topped out ramper. Not to take anything away from rampers but that whole a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone argument that the IAM loved to preach is exactly why we threw them out. That is a socialist mentality. AMFA made a lot of mistakes granted but what NW did was unprecedented in as far as airline unions. They spent millions and 2 years to prepare and they still had problems during the strike. A whole lot of things came together to make that 2005 strike a failure. Bottom line was NW did not want another ALPA on the property and they got everyones help from the govt to other unions on the property. Well we lost all is fair in love and war but I will tell what there is at most airlines your topped out mechanic and your topped out ramp guy the difference is over 10 dollars an hour now and me personally I make over 20 dollars an hour more. It took me 1900 hrs of school just to get the A@P then a lot of years to perfect my craft. I want to be properly compensated for my skill and responsibility and not subsidize other work groups. The pilots have their own union and so do the F/A's and dispatchers they don't let any other work group into their union all we wanted was a union to represent our issues but somehow we were perceived as elitists because we wanted a union to represent our interests.

 

[whoop whoop]

I suppose the IAM is the best answer?....I would rather be non-union then be with the IAM. The whole time I was with the IAM mechanics at most majors a topped out mechanic made maybe 2 dollars an hour over a topped out ramper. Not to take anything away from rampers but that whole a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone argument that the IAM loved to preach is exactly why we threw them out. That is a socialist mentality. AMFA made a lot of mistakes granted but what NW did was unprecedented in as far as airline unions. They spent millions and 2 years to prepare and they still had problems during the strike. A whole lot of things came together to make that 2005 strike a failure. Bottom line was NW did not want another ALPA on the property and they got everyones help from the govt to other unions on the property. Well we lost all is fair in love and war but I will tell what there is at most airlines your topped out mechanic and your topped out ramp guy the difference is over 10 dollars an hour now and me personally I make over 20 dollars an hour more. It took me 1900 hrs of school just to get the A@P then a lot of years to perfect my craft. I want to be properly compensated for my skill and responsibility and not subsidize other work groups. The pilots have their own union and so do the F/A's and dispatchers they don't let any other work group into their union all we wanted was a union to represent our issues but somehow we were perceived as elitists because we wanted a union to represent our interests.

I don't think any person actually thought A&P's think they are better than anyone else. It was just IAM propaganda that said it. And of course, most people just heard it enough that they actually started thinking it. it was the only defense the SCAB IAM had and still has as we have just seen, they still use it. SCABS is all they are.

 

[AP Tech]

AMFA isnt the answer, they blew it at NW, they represent WN and are still using the IBT CBA, with just improvements to wages.

Who else do they represent?

What other mechanic groups does the IAM represent at a major? Check out the pay scales the IAM represented group is the LOWEST of all the airlines, and I really doubt that will change, if fact I think it will get worse!!
"Strength through numbers" another joke that equates to more dues monies!! "We were confused" let us vote again....another IAM mistake!!!....... Retro Givebacks??......War Clause....AMFA had the right idea but was broken when the IAM scabbed, otherwise the airline would have been shut down. Every one of my contract books states that "employees will not have to cross a picket line of company employee's during a legal strike!! Sure a Judge would have ordered them back but at least make an attempt!! The IAM and its leadership just has no B++ls!!!! Communication, what is that?

I do say one thing though, the IAM has done quite a bit to help the non union carriers(B6, Fedex,Delta) as many ex Usair techs are now working at these places and the mere mention of organizing with the IAM makes them laugh!!

 

[Kev3188]

IAM Air Wisconsin took over groundwork form IAM NW and UA

I know. :angry:

Not to take anything away from rampers but that whole a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone argument that the IAM loved to preach is exactly why we threw them out.

I agree. As a crew chief on the ramp, I should be paid for the skill set I bring to the table. If that amount is X, then an AMT should be paid X+. The problem is that we as labor are always our worst enemy. Instead of fighting over how much more an AMT should make, we should all be working to raise X as the baseline.

Here's something xUT wrote a longtime ago that I think articulates it better than I can:


I hear this ‘coat tail’ crap ‘wayyyyyyyyyy to much’ without a justification for this type of mentality.
In fact, this type of mentality continues to divide ‘us’ and provides fuel for the pyre.

JMHO-

The people that believe this are delusional and in some respects are insecure as to whom they are.

Do you (meaning the individuals that adhere to this philosophy) think that by ranting to reduce the wages of others will somehow(?) put their(!) pennies in you own pocket?

(FYI, the ‘penny watchers’ are scooping up all of the pennies, not you).

Would it not be more logical to state that if a ‘pickle picker’ employee makes X then ‘I should make’ = X + (X*j) for my skills? And, if the value of X is raised, would not the formula of ‘I should make’ be raised as well?

For those that adhere to the ‘mantra’ to reduce the wages of those that you ‘deem’ below your ‘status’ in your misguided search for higher wages are not only belittling yourselves but your fellow workers.

If we work together to raise the value of ‘X’ then we work to raise the value of ‘I should make'.

I don't think any person actually thought A&P's think they are better than anyone else. It was just IAM propaganda that said it. And of course, most people just heard it enough that they actually started thinking it. it was the only defense the SCAB IAM had and still has as we have just seen, they still use it. SCABS is all they are.

Sure, a good portion of it was theater, but some guys AMT's really thought that way, and tried at every turn to convince the ramp why it was true. When the time came for AMFA to look for support, a lot of people remembered that. I should note that it usually was junior guys with dollar signs in their eyes. The more senior people appreciated AMFA for it's move toward professionalism of the craft and it's transparency, but were worried about the lack of strong scope language (and, yes, I know that they inherited some of it from the previous IAM CBA).


That said, it's been asked who AMFA still represents. I'm curious myself. I can think of WN, AS, and (I think?) XJ. Is there anyone else?

 

[gtd]

I know. :angry:




I agree. As a crew chief on the ramp, I should be paid for the skill set I bring to the table. If that amount is X, then an AMT should be paid X+. The problem is that we as labor are always our worst enemy. Instead of fighting over how much more an AMT should make, we should all be working to raise X as the baseline.

Here's something xUT wrote a longtime ago that I think articulates it better than I can:


I hear this ‘coat tail’ crap ‘wayyyyyyyyyy to much’ without a justification for this type of mentality.
In fact, this type of mentality continues to divide ‘us’ and provides fuel for the pyre.

JMHO-

The people that believe this are delusional and in some respects are insecure as to whom they are.

Do you (meaning the individuals that adhere to this philosophy) think that by ranting to reduce the wages of others will somehow(?) put their(!) pennies in you own pocket?

(FYI, the ‘penny watchers’ are scooping up all of the pennies, not you).

Would it not be more logical to state that if a ‘pickle picker’ employee makes X then ‘I should make’ = X + (X*j) for my skills? And, if the value of X is raised, would not the formula of ‘I should make’ be raised as well?

For those that adhere to the ‘mantra’ to reduce the wages of those that you ‘deem’ below your ‘status’ in your misguided search for higher wages are not only belittling yourselves but your fellow workers.

If we work together to raise the value of ‘X’ then we work to raise the value of ‘I should make'.







Sure, a good portion of it was theater, but some guys AMT's really thought that way, and tried at every turn to convince the ramp why it was true. When the time came for AMFA to look for support, a lot of people remembered that. I should note that it usually was junior guys with dollar signs in their eyes. The more senior people appreciated AMFA for it's move toward professionalism of the craft and it's transparency, but were worried about the lack of strong scope language (and, yes, I know that they inherited some of it from the previous IAM CBA).


That said, it's been asked who AMFA still represents. I'm curious myself. I can think of WN, AS, and (I think?) XJ. Is there anyone else?

Southwest Airlines

 

[xUT]

Southwest Airlines

WN is Southwest.

 

[famousfreddie]

I suppose the IAM is the best answer?....I would rather be non-union then be with the IAM. The whole time I was with the IAM mechanics at most majors a topped out mechanic made maybe 2 dollars an hour over a topped out ramper. Not to take anything away from rampers but that whole a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone argument that the IAM loved to preach is exactly why we threw them out. That is a socialist mentality. AMFA made a lot of mistakes granted but what NW did was unprecedented in as far as airline unions. They spent millions and 2 years to prepare and they still had problems during the strike. A whole lot of things came together to make that 2005 strike a failure. Bottom line was NW did not want another ALPA on the property and they got everyones help from the govt to other unions on the property. Well we lost all is fair in love and war but I will tell what there is at most airlines your topped out mechanic and your topped out ramp guy the difference is over 10 dollars an hour now and me personally I make over 20 dollars an hour more. It took me 1900 hrs of school just to get the A@P then a lot of years to perfect my craft. I want to be properly compensated for my skill and responsibility and not subsidize other work groups. The pilots have their own union and so do the F/A's and dispatchers they don't let any other work group into their union all we wanted was a union to represent our issues but somehow we were perceived as elitists because we wanted a union to represent our interests.

Wow, so you want to go back to AMFA aka The weakest of the weakest, ran by a former lorenzo lacky makes sense to me. NOT! 1900 hrs of trade school doesn't make you special. It just makes you a bolt butterer. If it wasn't for the professionals at reservations and the ticket counters you wouldn't be needed at all. You sold out Cabins and the fuelers to put a few more pennies in your pocket and you still couldn't save your classification from layoff. The only thing AMFA was successful in was moving the work offshore. 240 days of training. Anybody can do it. Try learning tariffs, visa requirements and TSA regulations. A&P's deserve the teamsters, you voted for them. FAA doesn't care if the work is done offshore, so that goes to show how special A&P's are. The license issuer in essence, has devalued the craft as you like to call it. So I believe the rest of us are subsidizing you. The sooner A&P's realize they need others, and quit crapping on other classification, to achieve their individual goals the better off they will be. A lone wolf cannot survive the winter.

 

[787nightmare]

Wow, so you want to go back to AMFA aka The weakest of the weakest, ran by a former lorenzo lacky makes sense to me. NOT! 1900 hrs of trade school doesn't make you special. It just makes you a bolt butterer. If it wasn't for the professionals at reservations and the ticket counters you wouldn't be needed at all. You sold out Cabins and the fuelers to put a few more pennies in your pocket and you still couldn't save your classification from layoff. The only thing AMFA was successful in was moving the work offshore. 240 days of training. Anybody can do it. Try learning tariffs, visa requirements and TSA regulations. A&P's deserve the teamsters, you voted for them. FAA doesn't care if the work is done offshore, so that goes to show how special A&P's are. The license issuer in essence, has devalued the craft as you like to call it. So I believe the rest of us are subsidizing you. The sooner A&P's realize they need others, and quit crapping on other classification, to achieve their individual goals the better off they will be. A lone wolf cannot survive the winter.

Yeah...right, now go straight to ALPA, AFA groups and tell them the same thing. And uh...with the same tone, OK?
Didin't think so...

You people are scared s***less the mechanics craft WILL finally once and for all, leave the rest of the other work groups to fend for themselves, and you know the carriers will have there way with your asses then. Good luck with that...
I for one, am sick and fricken tired of taking a back seat to the "other work groups" and being "one big happy family" in the negotiations. Only to watch our craft get railed right off a damned clift. An industry-wide craft union for the maintenance professionals is LONG overdue for the mechanics in this industry!

You, nor any other "individual"... will tell me my skills aren't worth what we collectively are seeking these days.

 

[700UW]

At US a AMT makes over $30 an hour and the ramp makes $20, both IAM.

AMFA does not represent ExpressJet.

Mechanics will never have a mechanics union only as its class and craft determined by the NMB.

No other work groups are similar to the pilots, that is why they have their own class and craft and same goes for FAs.

See posters like 787 show why other classifications think why AMTs think they are elitists.

And NW proved your replaceable, and you always will be when you have the Timcos, PEMCOS, HACEO, ST Aerospace, Aeroman and thousands of other MROs all over the world.

 

[famousfreddie]

Yeah...right, now go straight to ALPA, AFA groups and tell them the same thing. And uh...with the same tone, OK?
Didin't think so...

You people are scared s***less the mechanics craft WILL finally once and for all, leave the rest of the other work groups to fend for themselves, and you know the carriers will have there way with your asses then. Good luck with that...
I for one, am sick and fricken tired of taking a back seat to the "other work groups" and being "one big happy family" in the negotiations. Only to watch our craft get railed right off a damned clift. An industry-wide craft union for the maintenance professionals is LONG overdue for the mechanics in this industry!

You, nor any other "individual"... will tell me my skills aren't worth what we collectively are seeking these days.

I have not devalued your job, but thats what happens when you devalue other humans that are trying to earn a living for their families. Don't like it do you. Either do we. Perhaps you can go back to trade school and get HVAC training. Individuals like you that have bought into the elitists attitude, with only a trade school education is beyond me. You can't see where it has put your "craft" but the FAA has and that is part of the reason aircraft are now maintained offshore. Because individuals like you went lone wolf and now can't survive the winter. Wise up join the pack. Oh by the way Dubinsky is now a teamster! Butter that bolt.