UAL A&p's and related have a T/A

[xUT]

Here's something xUT wrote a longtime ago that I think articulates it better than I can:


I hear this ‘coat tail’ crap ‘wayyyyyyyyyy to much’ without a justification for this type of mentality.
In fact, this type of mentality continues to divide ‘us’ and provides fuel for the pyre.

JMHO-

The people that believe this are delusional and in some respects are insecure as to whom they are.

Do you (meaning the individuals that adhere to this philosophy) think that by ranting to reduce the wages of others will somehow(?) put their(!) pennies in you own pocket?

(FYI, the ‘penny watchers’ are scooping up all of the pennies, not you).

Would it not be more logical to state that if a ‘pickle picker’ employee makes X then ‘I should make’ = X + (X*j) for my skills? And, if the value of X is raised, would not the formula of ‘I should make’ be raised as well?

For those that adhere to the ‘mantra’ to reduce the wages of those that you ‘deem’ below your ‘status’ in your misguided search for higher wages are not only belittling yourselves but your fellow workers.

If we work together to raise the value of ‘X’ then we work to raise the value of ‘I should make'.

Wow, blast from the past but it still holds true.

Looking at the last couple of posters here the 'logic' of how this doesn't work is clear.
Not that the formula is wrong, but that the green eyed monster (jealousy/elitism/envy) will always divide the working class. We are our own worst enemy.

Pure socialism does not work, communism does not work, and (as we have seen time and time again) pure capitalism does not work. We all have to respect each other and our positions and act accordingly, but I don't see that happening. 🙁

Best of Luck to you all!!!
JMHO
B) xUT

 

[700UW]

Well said xUT.

 

[famousfreddie]

I also agree. He can make his claim to better pay, but do it by other means than belittling and devalueing other classifications. All can play that game and it gets us no where fast.

 

[AP Tech]

At US a AMT makes over $30 an hour

Check out the updated chart on the cal-ualmechanics.com website, and its interesting that out of 11 airlines listed, Usair is the ONLY one represented by the IAM...AND the lowest paid? And they are not the only carrier that came out of BK.. 😛h34r:

 

[787nightmare]

"700UW and famousfreddie"...listen up.

I am NOT belittling anyone here...nor do I feel I am a "better person" than anyone. What I do know, is that my worth to my employer, is head and shoulders more than the other groups we are lumped in together with. You dub me an "elitist"...this is ridiculous and you know it. While my license to learn, took only 18 mos, I've been at this PROFESSION for more than 20 yrs. It has taken years to develope my expertise on the various fleets we work on-and you know this. The responsibility we shoulder rightfully should command significantly more than the other work groups at a major airline-except the flight deck-and you know this too. Bob Owens, who is on the TWU negotiating committee at AA, tried to explain this to you guys, but you won't hear of it.

This all reminds me, vividly, of the verbal sparring with other IAM loyalists on "the-mechanic" site, that called the NWA AMTs every name in the book when they were breaking free from the IAM. I worked at NWA from 92-98, and currently work with several exNWA mechanics. ALL despise the IAM. No amount of logical reasoning with IAM loyalist will convince or persuade. Factual statements are irrelavant. AMFA wasn't perfect, but like "lineguy"...I'd rather go non-union than be "represented" by the damned IAM again.

A man is paid according to his knowledge, responsibility and worth to his employer. Unless, that is, he's shackled to an industrial union where he's a minority in the union!
But...you guys knew all this anyway didn't you. Go hump somebody elses leg...

 

[whoop whoop]

I have not devalued your job, but thats what happens when you devalue other humans that are trying to earn a living for their families. Don't like it do you. Either do we. Perhaps you can go back to trade school and get HVAC training. Individuals like you that have bought into the elitists attitude, with only a trade school education is beyond me. You can't see where it has put your "craft" but the FAA has and that is part of the reason aircraft are now maintained offshore. Because individuals like you went lone wolf and now can't survive the winter. Wise up join the pack. Oh by the way Dubinsky is now a teamster! Butter that bolt.

Yeah buddy, I want to be in a union with you, ROFLMAO. I wonder why A&P's don't want to be in the same union??????????? And secondly, I as most, have a bachelors degree and 4 years of military defending your freedom to belittle me. As far as I know, trade schools don't offer degree's. Tell Embry Riddle grads they went to a trade school! You have to learn to reel in your emotions good buddy.

 

[aafsc]

Yeah...right, now go straight to ALPA, AFA groups and tell them the same thing. And uh...with the same tone, OK?
Didin't think so...

You people are scared s***less the mechanics craft WILL finally once and for all, leave the rest of the other work groups to fend for themselves, and you know the carriers will have there way with your asses then. Good luck with that...
I for one, am sick and fricken tired of taking a back seat to the "other work groups" and being "one big happy family" in the negotiations. Only to watch our craft get railed right off a damned clift. An industry-wide craft union for the maintenance professionals is LONG overdue for the mechanics in this industry!

You, nor any other "individual"... will tell me my skills aren't worth what we collectively are seeking these days.

NWA sure "had their way with the asses" of the AMFA mechanics at NW, didn't they? As a ramper, I totally support the concept of mechanics in their own craft union. I totally support the AA AMT's efforts to get AMP in and in fact I will never understand why they abandoned their mechanics only union (ALMA) many years ago to bang on the doors of the TWU. Perhaps we rampers should have told them to take a hike (but we all know its about the dues).The fact that NWA permanantly dismissed their AMFA represented mechanics without having an effect on the overpaid (according to you) rampers at NWA forever kills the favorite AMT myth that ramp "rides the mechanic's coattails". Now those former NW rampers are making about the same pay at non-union DL and the mechanics at DL are non-union. Why doesn't DL significantly cut the ramps pay and give it the mechanics? Did Lorenzo give the mechanics more money when he busted all the unions at CO in the early 1980s? What about EAL? After the EAL strike ALL RAMP WAS FARMED OUT FOREVER WHILE THEY KEPT HEAVY OVERHAUL AND LINE INHOUSE; did the EAL replacement mechanics get a huge raise? No. DID they get parity with the AMTs at UA, AA, NW, etc.? NO. Did they make pre-strike EAL AMT wages? Absolutely not. THEY MADE WHAT LORENZO WANTED TO PAY THEM which was far below industry standard. XUT is on target when he says that when management takes from one group (ramp) another (mechanics) never gets that money. Show me one case just ONE where this has occurred. What is hurting you guys, like 700UW said, are the domestic shops like TIMCO and PEMCO where a senior licensed AMT makes $25/hr with crappy medical and no pension and the foreign shops like aeroman in El Salvador where a senior licensed mechanic makes $7/hr and whose benefits consist of a subsidized lunch and a bus ride to work. I addition, there are line maintenance contractors who pay less; like the ones NWA used to break the strike in their line stations. But what hurts the most is WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE CROSS YOUR OWN PICKET LINE. This fact is never addressed nor is the fact that AMFAS sister union PFAA crossed the line and we never hear about the pilots or agents; it's always the rampers that are complained about; one would get the impression that they were changing engines, brakes, wheels, and signing off logbooks; this just proves how many AMTS have a pathological haterid for the ramp; this is my experience as far as I can remember going back to EAL in the 1980s.

 

[700UW]

An AMT is paid according to the market forces, and your not even at AA anymore.

Bottom line is as long as MROs exists your pay will not go up.

And you are an elitist, look at your last sentence.

And an AMT is not even considered skilled labor by the DOL.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Just thought I'd chime in and offer a word of caution to those who continue to peddle the idea that AMFA threw the cleaners under the bus to try and save themselves. It might suprise you to know the lengths AMFA negotiators went to try and save the cleaners, for instance were any of you aware that AMFA offered to surrender most of our contractual holidays to maintain the cleaners? The rejection of that offer proved the companys intent on farming out the work but it wasn't for lack of trying on AMFAs part.

BTW it is interesting to note now that we are merging with CAL(a group that still has cleaners) the ibt in their dismal mechanics TA took over 3 dollars off the UAL cleaners pay scales. Looks like they screwed all the remaining cleaners UAL had on furlough.

Just another reason we're dumping them.

 

[lineguy43]

NWA sure "had their way with the asses" of the AMFA mechanics at NW, didn't they? As a ramper, I totally support the concept of mechanics in their own craft union. I totally support the AA AMT's efforts to get AMP in and in fact I will never understand why they abandoned their mechanics only union (ALMA) many years ago to bang on the doors of the TWU. Perhaps we rampers should have told them to take a hike (but we all know its about the dues).The fact that NWA permanantly dismissed their AMFA represented mechanics without having an effect on the overpaid (according to you) rampers at NWA forever kills the favorite AMT myth that ramp "rides the mechanic's coattails". Now those former NW rampers are making about the same pay at non-union DL and the mechanics at DL are non-union. Why doesn't DL significantly cut the ramps pay and give it the mechanics? Did Lorenzo give the mechanics more money when he busted all the unions at CO in the early 1980s? What about EAL? After the EAL strike ALL RAMP WAS FARMED OUT FOREVER WHILE THEY KEPT HEAVY OVERHAUL AND LINE INHOUSE; did the EAL replacement mechanics get a huge raise? No. DID they get parity with the AMTs at UA, AA, NW, etc.? NO. Did they make pre-strike EAL AMT wages? Absolutely not. THEY MADE WHAT LORENZO WANTED TO PAY THEM which was far below industry standard. XUT is on target when he says that when management takes from one group (ramp) another (mechanics) never gets that money. Show me one case just ONE where this has occurred. What is hurting you guys, like 700UW said, are the domestic shops like TIMCO and PEMCO where a senior licensed AMT makes $25/hr with crappy medical and no pension and the foreign shops like aeroman in El Salvador where a senior licensed mechanic makes $7/hr and whose benefits consist of a subsidized lunch and a bus ride to work. I addition, there are line maintenance contractors who pay less; like the ones NWA used to break the strike in their line stations. But what hurts the most is WHEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE CROSS YOUR OWN PICKET LINE. This fact is never addressed nor is the fact that AMFAS sister union PFAA crossed the line and we never hear about the pilots or agents; it's always the rampers that are complained about; one would get the impression that they were changing engines, brakes, wheels, and signing off logbooks; this just proves how many AMTS have a pathological haterid for the ramp; this is my experience as far as I can remember going back to EAL in the 1980s.

Well don't know what to tell you but you are right the ramp never suffered but explain to me why the mechanic pay leaped 13 dollars an hour in our very first AMFA contract at NWA after leaving the IAM? Bottom line is in 2000 NW did their MX in house and they were not prepared for a strike by MX. Took them a lot of time and money to put together a plan to bust AMFA and even then it almost didn't work. I don't believe that the ramp was riding coattails in as much as the industrial unions were stifling the wages of the mechanics. If the ramp really had no problem with us trying to go it alone why did we (at least in MEM) when mechanics had pushbacks and would set up our gates after a/c arrival. We would hook the towbar up and put the bypass pin in. The second AMFA became a real threat we found guys getting ready to push who found the bypass pin removed. Seems to me there were ramp guys upset with us leaving. I won't deny we had a##es in the ranks who looked down on the ramp much like the pilots look down their nose at us. I didn't feel that way..I just felt that the IAM didn't have our best interest at heart. Me personally I have a lot invested in my career I have been doing this for over 25 years and I have a lot of experience working 5 different aircraft types there was a reason I was able to walk across the street to FX starting at MORE money than I made at NW. I don't think there is another workgroup that can go to another airline and start at a higher salary then their previous employer unless it was a regional. So call me semi skilled or whatever I get paid pretty damn well for semi skilled. Something that never happened under the IAM and I am non-union now. So my question is why do SWA and UPS and FX pay such nice salaries to MX? I mean if it was that easy just contract all of it right? Yeah those companies know contract line mx suck and they only use contractors in places where an mx delay wont hurt their bottom line.

 

[famousfreddie]

Yeah buddy, I want to be in a union with you, ROFLMAO. I wonder why A&P's don't want to be in the same union??????????? And secondly, I as most, have a bachelors degree and 4 years of military defending your freedom to belittle me. As far as I know, trade schools don't offer degree's. Tell Embry Riddle grads they went to a trade school! You have to learn to reel in your emotions good buddy.

Emotions are what happens when one group attacks another. To make economic gains at the cost of another is no better than lorenzo, wolfe, and Parker. It is easy to blame one another for our plight, but place the blame where it belongs------ management. They have done a fine job separating us and keep us infighting, all the while using wheel barrows to roll the money to the nearest cashiers window. I got no problem telling a wharton business school grad he is a bean counter and paper pusher that wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for other humans working and producing. Their is no one special, we all need each other to win the war.

Thats my story and i'm stickin to it.

 

[Kev3188]

Wow, so you want to go back to AMFA aka The weakest of the weakest, ran by a former lorenzo lacky makes sense to me. NOT! 1900 hrs of trade school doesn't make you special. It just makes you a bolt butterer. If it wasn't for the professionals at reservations and the ticket counters you wouldn't be needed at all. You sold out Cabins and the fuelers to put a few more pennies in your pocket and you still couldn't save your classification from layoff. The only thing AMFA was successful in was moving the work offshore. 240 days of training. Anybody can do it. Try learning tariffs, visa requirements and TSA regulations. A&P's deserve the teamsters, you voted for them. FAA doesn't care if the work is done offshore, so that goes to show how special A&P's are. The license issuer in essence, has devalued the craft as you like to call it. So I believe the rest of us are subsidizing you. The sooner A&P's realize they need others, and quit crapping on other classification, to achieve their individual goals the better off they will be. A lone wolf cannot survive the winter.

... And if the planes are out of service, customer service doesn't matter... and if res doesn't do their part, maintenance doesn't matter, etc. etc. Each group is a component. Each need to cooperate for the system to run at it's best.

Wow, blast from the past but it still holds true.

Blast from the past indeed! I hope you don't mind me posting it.

This all reminds me, vividly, of the verbal sparring with other IAM loyalists on "the-mechanic" site, that called the NWA AMTs every name in the book when they were breaking free from the IAM. I worked at NWA from 92-98, and currently work with several exNWA mechanics. ALL despise the IAM. No amount of logical reasoning with IAM loyalist will convince or persuade. Factual statements are irrelavant. AMFA wasn't perfect, but like "lineguy"...I'd rather go non-union than be "represented" by the damned IAM again.

And again, on that site, here, and elsewhere, we are/were our own worst enemy.

Yeah buddy, I want to be in a union with you, ROFLMAO. I wonder why A&P's don't want to be in the same union??????????? And secondly, I as most, have a bachelors degree and 4 years of military defending your freedom to belittle me. As far as I know, trade schools don't offer degree's. Tell Embry Riddle grads they went to a trade school! You have to learn to reel in your emotions good buddy.

A lot of people I know on the ramp/gates/Inflight have degrees. It's a myth that we're all semi literate.

Just thought I'd chime in and offer a word of caution to those who continue to peddle the idea that AMFA threw the cleaners under the bus to try and save themselves. It might suprise you to know the lengths AMFA negotiators went to try and save the cleaners, for instance were any of you aware that AMFA offered to surrender most of our contractual holidays to maintain the cleaners? The rejection of that offer proved the companys intent on farming out the work but it wasn't for lack of trying on AMFAs part.

Was this at NW? I'm glad to hear it, but the cleaners were already in a deep hole thanks to the scope language in the CBA. If you can find it, check out the arbitration report on farming out MEM. NW had a field day with the scope language. It was really sad to read.

Well don't know what to tell you but you are right the ramp never suffered but explain to me why the mechanic pay leaped 13 dollars an hour in our very first AMFA contract at NWA after leaving the IAM? Bottom line is in 2000 NW did their MX in house and they were not prepared for a strike by MX. Took them a lot of time and money to put together a plan to bust AMFA and even then it almost didn't work. I don't believe that the ramp was riding coattails in as much as the industrial unions were stifling the wages of the mechanics. If the ramp really had no problem with us trying to go it alone why did we (at least in MEM) when mechanics had pushbacks and would set up our gates after a/c arrival. We would hook the towbar up and put the bypass pin in. The second AMFA became a real threat we found guys getting ready to push who found the bypass pin removed. Seems to me there were ramp guys upset with us leaving. I won't deny we had a##es in the ranks who looked down on the ramp much like the pilots look down their nose at us. I didn't feel that way..I just felt that the IAM didn't have our best interest at heart. Me personally I have a lot invested in my career I have been doing this for over 25 years and I have a lot of experience working 5 different aircraft types there was a reason I was able to walk across the street to FX starting at MORE money than I made at NW. I don't think there is another workgroup that can go to another airline and start at a higher salary then their previous employer unless it was a regional. So call me semi skilled or whatever I get paid pretty damn well for semi skilled. Something that never happened under the IAM and I am non-union now. So my question is why do SWA and UPS and FX pay such nice salaries to MX? I mean if it was that easy just contract all of it right? Yeah those companies know contract line mx suck and they only use contractors in places where an mx delay wont hurt their bottom line.

1. I would've liked to have seen AMFA find a way to use DLH to "prove" (I use the term loosely) their value. great facility, great skill set, both tossed overboard by both sides.

2. Pulling pins is inexcusable. I don't care who you are, or what union you want. That's disgusting.

 

[Bob Owens]

And I know what happened, and that would be a biased source.

I was unaware that you were a former NWA mechanic.

Bottom line was NW was hell bent on destroying the M&R Class and Craft and AFMA did nothing to stop it, they were outsmarted at every turn and NW broke the union at NW, now didnt they?

Outsmarted or outguned?

If they did this to the mechanics how much trouble do you think they will have doing it to you? Dont think that they've stopped, because they havent. Just look at Wisconsin. Now you can keep reveling in the so called "Victory" at seeing a fellow union squashed at NWA but dont be suprised when your time comes and nobody is left to help you. Do you think you can coult on the pilots just because they are AFL-CIO?

 

[700UW]

I have been on strike at US, the pilots made a sweetheart deal with the company, and flew over our picket line.

I have left the industry and went to a better industry and I am back in school.

I was just explaining how AMFA failed, that is reality.

 

[Bob Owens]

An AMT is paid according to the market forces, and your not even at AA anymore.

Bottom line is as long as MROs exists your pay will not go up.

And you are an elitist, look at your last sentence.

And an AMT is not even considered skilled labor by the DOL.

With this post its clear that some mechanic at one time or another clearly pissed you off. Well what can I say to that? Sorry? There are thousands of mechanics and not every mechanic is responsible for the actions of every other mechanic. But after posts like this I can understand if not condone why a mechanic may have responded to you the way he did. You are behaving like an ass.

Mechanics are licensed by the FAA after passing a series of written, oral and practical exams. Normally after a few thousand hours of classroom training. They usually pay for this training out of their own pockets and have put in several years of work towards a career before they ever get a paycheck. Then when he gets there he goes to a union meeting and has someone like you saying things like you are saying here and has to ask himself"Do I really need this?". Why is a mechanic an elitist when like a pilot he invested time and money into a career and then has a desire to be in a union of people who have done the same? Have you ever seen Mechanics put up barriers to prevent you from doing the same? Why arent Flight Attendants elitists? Are there any unions out there where Flight Attendants are in a mixed class local? Why do you tolerate Pilots and Flight attendants having their own unions but not mechanics? Half the AFL-CIO is made up of what you call "Elistist unions, well let me tell you something, if we follow your example the Industrial unions will be the next ones wiped out. We need to learn to repsect each other and recognize that we all have value instead of cheering when our mutual enemy wipes out fellow unionists that we had a dissagreement with.

Go ahead, sit back and continue to revell in the fact that the Mechanics at NWA got their asses handed to them but what exactly did you prove? You claim that it proved that AMFA was wrong, well the fact is that the IAM and the AFL-CIO had the opportunity to prove they were right, but they didnt. If they had stepped in and bailed AMFA out not only would they have proved AMFA wrong but they would have proved that they were right. My feeling is that it was their own uncertainty and lack of confidence that stopped them from what could have been not only a victoty for labor but a slam dunk for the AFL-CIO.

By the way MROs have existed for a long time. They dont affect wages as much as you'd like to think, certainly not as much as Hudson General, Swissport etc affect your wages.