US Airways Pilots' Labor Thread 5/19-5/26 READ THE FIRST POST

[luvn737s]

More likely Wake is giving Cleary time to come to his senses and change direction. But if you think Wake is warming up to Seham, well ...

What I can't understand is why the east pilots here would rather do nothing than have USAPA do it's job and present a contract to vote on. If you think that the east is in lemming lockstep as they claim, why not present the contract and vote it down over and over again instead of wasting time on appeal? USAPA still gets to drag it's feet (at it's own peril) providing what they promised a DOH seniority list (the same one they've had). The only reason I can see for wanting to delay the first vote on a contract is that USAPA is afraid that sinister common sense will sneak in and undo all the fear mongering they have so carefully put together. Are they afraid that 50%+1 of the pilots will send a message to Cleary that they are tired of his games and are ready to make a little more money? That sounds like ALPA all over again to me.

What's so juicy about a couple 76's or A330's that pay like a SW 737?

 

[hp_fa]

I like to consider myself as a moderate. I also believe in trying to work out issues before any third-party makes a binding decision because you never know how a third-party will decide an issue. I've posted that quite a few times in the past.

The problem that I see now is that both parties have previously submitted the dispute to a third-party and a binding decision has since been rendered. East got the top 517 slots and West got proportional slotting after that. I know that is perceived as a West win, although some folks would dispute that after the first 517 slots went East, but I have a hard time coming around to the position that after a binding decision was rendered why a party should now negotiate any part of that away. To me it is akin to someone negotiating against themselves.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

More likely Wake is giving Cleary time to come to his senses and change direction. But if you think Wake is warming up to Seham, well ...

What I can't understand is why the east pilots here would rather do nothing than have USAPA do it's job and present a contract to vote on. If you think that the east is in lemming lockstep as they claim, why not present the contract and vote it down over and over again instead of wasting time on appeal? USAPA still gets to drag it's feet (at it's own peril) providing what they promised a DOH seniority list (the same one they've had). The only reason I can see for wanting to delay the first vote on a contract is that USAPA is afraid that sinister common sense will sneak in and undo all the fear mongering they have so carefully put together. Are they afraid that 50%+1 of the pilots will send a message to Cleary that they are tired of his games and are ready to make a little more money? That sounds like ALPA all over again to me.

What's so juicy about a couple 76's or A330's that pay like a SW 737?

What's your hurry?...you are the poster who says we should take the Kirby for 12 months, right? You'd like that...locks in the Nic...no? I have said it before, and I'll say it again since you seem to miss it: with a potential "restoration" of payrates that needs to play out, there's a ZERO chance of signing something beforehand for several reasons. If you can't see that, then I can't help you. Why bargain for what you may get automatically...THEN bargain from there...oh, and the pesky detail of Parker not having enough money to buy off the East on the Nic damages they'll finish their career on....for starters.

Or, as OscarJazz says, and a few out East has bantered about: maybe a big contract with the Nic and payscales based on DOH with a 15 year fence on the Mississippi...how's that?

And finally, 737...are you even a member in good standing of USAPA? If not, why do you possibly care so much about what USAPA, or Cleary, or the East does...? You exhibit an unhealthy infatuation with all your other friends out there over Cleary, USAPA, the Nic...all of it.

If you really just wanted what you brought to the merger, we wouldn't even be talking about this, now would we...you'd be content to drive to work everyday and fly to wherever you used to fly...in what you used to fly....you already make more than East does for same EQ....why the uncontrolled drooling?...don't hear the East drooling....a few notable exceptions who frequent here, maybe. The continued passive/aggressive soft-sell by you is laughable..really.

Just thought you'd like to know.

ta-ta

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I find it interesting that the same handful of west posters' continue the daily barage of propaganda even after the court case is over and waiting for round 2. I guess it has something to do with the fact that regardless of the nature of the remedy Wake cooks up, he can't make it happen without a ratified CBA. Maybe that's what drives the prolific posting of the "victors" in the court case.
"It's the Nic!...PERIOD!...END OF STORY...GAME OVER....YOU LOSE.....TIME TO SIGN THE KIRBY DEAL.....(ad infinitem)..lets hold hands and walk forward together and get ol' Dougie...

Maybe we can have a spelling bee instead, because the drivel on and on about who, what, how, why, and when means nada. We'll see what Wake conjures up next month in the form of ironclad language that neuters the East pilots and jams the Nicolau list into the next joint CBA that the East won't be able to vote down via a democratic process....(even though thats exactly what he said he can't intervene in)....meantime: what are you guys so wound up about? That Wake is still going to allow for a ratification vote on any CBA containing the Nic?
You should be.

That he may be considering Seham's suggestion as outlined in the transcripts?

(wouldn't that just be a hoot?)

Could it be that the West has figured out that the Nic allows them to RUN from the shrinking markets out there and fall into the cockpits of some juicy 76's or 330's? Is that what all the ferver is about? I guess I don't get it.

Anger
Denial
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


You will be there soon enough. Your side lost, even a blind man could see it. The sooner you figure it out, the better you will be. USAPA was created to circumvent binding arbitration, not suggested arbitration.

Find your way to acceptance.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

The problem that I see now is that both parties have previously submitted the dispute to a third-party and a binding decision has since been rendered. East got the top 517 slots and West got proportional slotting after that. I know that is perceived as a West win, although some folks would dispute that after the first 517 slots went East, but I have a hard time coming around to the position that after a binding decision was rendered why a party should now negotiate any part of that away. To me it is akin to someone negotiating against themselves.

It's up to them what they "bargain away"...or even IF they "bargain away". I'm not suggesting either. The case is done at this level. Looks like it's going to run up the flagpole. Whatever.
As you and I have discussed here, the option with the highest probability for advancement of the whole was status quo ante....but hey, everyone can hold out for the Nic....for as long as it takes.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Anger
Denial
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


You will be there soon enough. Your side lost, even a blind man could see it. The sooner you figure it out, the better you will be. USAPA was created to circumvent binding arbitration, not suggested arbitration.

Find your way to acceptance.

Nice try. But I did get a little weepy. If you type that over and over do I go into a trance?

Please, just stick to the actual issues...unless Wake does something different with the Nic...we're in gridlock. It's just that simple. And it is what it is...but gridlock means Nic may not go live for years...it's just a fact that he recognized as well.

 

[spike99]

Doesn't matter what I regard or disregard. I agree with Nicolau's reasoning.Only if he has to. Every arbitrator prefers the parties to come to an agreement for obvious reasons.You're wrong and I can prove it: I know ALPA Merger Policy was followed completely. The fact that you don't agree with Nicolau's decision doesn't mean ALPA policy wasn't followed. Oh, and a federal judge and jury agree with me. Your man Seham is smarter than Judge Wake? Good luck with that (read sarcasm).Perhaps, but was the East membership aware that Nicolau had no intention of giving you DOH? I gotta believe you wouldn't have needed CIRP activation had your expectations been managed properly.Very perceptive. Drop the attack on our seniority and that'll change.True. Is President Cleary listening? Or is he "supremely confident" it's not a problem?I'm a member in good standing and from the beginning I've advocated the same for my AWA colleagues. I believe we can be far more effective influencing USAPA from the inside than out. As far as the future attrition, well, the future doesn't always turn out as expected. In 1999 when I was hired at TWA I was told to expect a five-year upgrade. Instead I've been furloughed for seven years. Nicolau understood the distant future wasn't his concern because too much can happen. Witness also the NW/DL arbitration. Long-term fences are a thing of the past because all they do is foster prolonged conflict. I may get that attrition you think I will and I may not. I wouldn't bet on it in any case.

To begin with, the we've won attitude of the West posters is almost comedic. Judge Wake left an enormous amount of room for an apeal by the amount of information he did not let the jury consider in their findings. He almost exclusively allowed any information pertaining to the Final and binding arbitration of the Nic to be included, without any of the history or circumstances to that finding be admitted. Said award, was based on the findings of an arbitrator assigned by the previous bargaining agent, and not assigned by any legal entity. Of course, none of this was allowed by Judge Wake. He also did not allow any facts of the differences of the findings, there was sufficient testimony, but he reminded the jury they could not consider that in the final judgements.

You continue to champion the NW/DAL merger as an equal to this situation, what you fail to mention is the complete disparities of the two pilot groups. Primarily, the fact their groups were of very similar demographics. It's true, NWA had a senior group, but the increases in pay for their group alleviated the lost seniority of a much similar group, this is not the case in the US Airways and AW merger. The entire premise of the Nic award was of the failed US carrier and the vibrant AW partner. In all documents, testimonies and actual performances since the award, this has been illustrated to be a false premise. You contend it was a straightforwrd slotting, but in the slotting of US Airways and AW you completely discount the 1800+ furloghed pilots of US Airways, even though it is the US Airways side which brings the majority of the attrition. Did not both ALPA contracts say individuals on the respective seniority lists were on the seniority lists.

In addition, why did AW continue to hire pilots while they had already started talks with US Airways about a potential merger. Interestingly why after the first rounds nothing was agreed to, but afterwards (500 more furloughs) and LOA 93, they were able to come to and agreement. Lets get Doug, Scott, Bruce and all of the other players under oath and ask if this had anything to do with the final structuring. A structuring which greatly advantaged the West.

 

[Edward]

I'm sure I'll see the corn field for this but anyone who believes NICOLAU is fair and balanced is a COMPLETE IDIOT!!!!!

To repeat what Richard said earlier don't test us here. This is over now. The next one is gone 14 days.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

To me it is akin to someone negotiating against themselves.

Thats true, the only negotiationg after the arbitration is for the new contract, however the east wanted to see if we were stupid enough to let them strong arm us into effectively giving them what they wanted from Nic in the first place. The east blew a gasket over nic and have been trying to stongarm the west ever since. I'm all for addressing some of their concerns, but not when the other party is a bully. It's time to stand up and be counted at that point, especially considering the east is on the wrong side of the law and decency.

Even nine regular joes and one very wise Judge figured usapa out in short order.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

To begin with, the we've won attitude of the West posters is almost comedic. Judge Wake left an enormous amount of room for an apeal by the amount of information he did not let the jury consider in their findings. He almost exclusively allowed any information pertaining to the Final and binding arbitration of the Nic to be included, without any of the history or circumstances to that finding be admitted. Said award, was based on the findings of an arbitrator assigned by the previous bargaining agent, and not assigned by any legal entity. Of course, none of this was allowed by Judge Wake. He also did not allow any facts of the differences of the findings, there was sufficient testimony, but he reminded the jury they could not consider that in the final judgements.

You continue to champion the NW/DAL merger as an equal to this situation, what you fail to mention is the complete disparities of the two pilot groups. Primarily, the fact their groups were of very similar demographics. It's true, NWA had a senior group, but the increases in pay for their group alleviated the lost seniority of a much similar group, this is not the case in the US Airways and AW merger. The entire premise of the Nic award was of the failed US carrier and the vibrant AW partner. In all documents, testimonies and actual performances since the award, this has been illustrated to be a false premise. You contend it was a straightforwrd slotting, but in the slotting of US Airways and AW you completely discount the 1800+ furloghed pilots of US Airways, even though it is the US Airways side which brings the majority of the attrition. Did not both ALPA contracts say individuals on the respective seniority lists were on the seniority lists.

In addition, why did AW continue to hire pilots while they had already started talks with US Airways about a potential merger. Interestingly why after the first rounds nothing was agreed to, but afterwards (500 more furloughs) and LOA 93, they were able to come to and agreement. Lets get Doug, Scott, Bruce and all of the other players under oath and ask if this had anything to do with the final structuring. A structuring which greatly advantaged the West.

Spike, the trouble with all that appeal logic is who it comes from, Seham the super lawyer. Do you really have faith in that? Really? Truly? What has super lawyer ever called right for you guys?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Is Sehams house in the Hamptons where he and Cleary slap each others backs, or is that just in the court house bathroom?

 

[Elevation]

To begin with, the we've won attitude of the West posters is almost comedic. Judge Wake left an enormous amount of room for an apeal by the amount of information he did not let the jury consider in their findings. He almost exclusively allowed any information pertaining to the Final and binding arbitration of the Nic to be included, without any of the history or circumstances to that finding be admitted. Said award, was based on the findings of an arbitrator assigned by the previous bargaining agent, and not assigned by any legal entity. Of course, none of this was allowed by Judge Wake. He also did not allow any facts of the differences of the findings, there was sufficient testimony, but he reminded the jury they could not consider that in the final judgements.

You need to educate yourself on what the case was and was not about. The Nic, fair or not was not to be judged by the jury. What was to be judged was whether USAPA was fair in representing the West. I believe you are aware of the unanimous answer the jury came back with. As far as the Courts are concerned the nic is written into a granite slab never to be changed (final and binding). For the courts to change the nic would cause a legal shift in the way law/arbitration's are viewed.

The nic is the list, accept that fact. It's not going to change.

 

[cactusboy53]

I like to consider myself as a moderate. I also believe in trying to work out issues before any third-party makes a binding decision because you never know how a third-party will decide an issue. I've posted that quite a few times in the past.

The problem that I see now is that both parties have previously submitted the dispute to a third-party and a binding decision has since been rendered. East got the top 517 slots and West got proportional slotting after that. I know that is perceived as a West win, although some folks would dispute that after the first 517 slots went East, but I have a hard time coming around to the position that after a binding decision was rendered why a party should now negotiate any part of that away. To me it is akin to someone negotiating against themselves.

Ahhh....a well thought out and easily followed argument as to how we should move on. Thanks hp fa. Judge Wake will take careful time to pen what he perceives as a reasonable injunctive order. The extra time announced will help him put together something that will be most difficult to undermine.

What an unfortunate and unnessesary waste of time and money to achieve what should have been accepted at the completion of the merger process.

 

[cleardirect]

Rant and rave all you east guys want. In 45 days we are going to be living in a new world. There are events lining up that are going to completely change the dynamics of our situation.

The end of June judge Wake will issue his remedy . My prediction is that it is going to be very comprehensive and very tight. Little wiggle room for usapa to play games.

The Suzie arbitration should be decided. If she wins that it would be a $2 million loss for the Seham law firm, I mean the union.

The block hour arbitration should be issued. This could be a shift in block hours from the east to the west. Possibility of bringing back up to 100 west pilots. Guess what happens to the east pilots?

A long delay in contract negotiations. With the company locked into the Nicolau I expect usapa to drag their feet for awhile. The other possibility is the company walks away from the table because as long as usapa has appealed there is no way to get a contract. The company is not going to waste their time with usapa until there is a final decision. Two years form now before they start again. Willing to hold out at least three to four more years?

A little less clear would be another merger. With this comes all of the unknowns.

The fourth of July for usapa and the east could be a really bad holiday this year.

 

[Metroyet]

Is Sehams house in the Hamptons where he and Cleary slap each others backs, or is that just in the court house bathroom?

All I saw those two do was shadow box outside the courtroom. No Kidding. I swear that actually happened.

Keep payin' them dues...