US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[AWA320]

Lions and Tigers and Bears (96).......

OH MY!

(Latest from the Peanut Gallery....update @ 11)

Probably your same statment just prior to your getting that famous LOA ya got!! Nope my bad it was "full pay till the last day" How that working out by the way??

 

[AWA320]

Are you kidding me, usapa is all about the Nic., and everyone here knows it, why are you playing stupid?

He's not playing stupid he's being himself

 

[AAA73Pilot]

He's not playing stupid he's being himself

We disagree. So what else is new?

Nice try though. The truth hurts. Especially when we're in a democracy. Maybe some day you will figure it out.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Probably your same statment just prior to your getting that famous LOA ya got!! Nope my bad it was "full pay till the last day" How that working out by the way??

And your going to "negotiate" with the company for 330 flying.....ONLY IF YOU 'UNDERBID" THE EAST could you POSSIBLY get any 330 flying....AKA WHIPSAW!!! If you think the COMPANY is going to pay you MORE so you can fly anything out EAST better think again and we will see who will decide WHO THE "SCABS" are here.

"Item, qe nul soit si hardy de crier havok sur peine davoir la test coupe."

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (Leonidas @ Mar 23 2008, 11:40 AM)
Are you kidding me, usapa is all about the Nic., and everyone here knows it, why are you playing stupid?"

He's not playing stupid he's being himself

Gentlemen: Would it be proper for any/all to assume that you do indeed represent the Alpa leadership's thought processes out West?

Addendum: Given the Nic/"ME!!!" fixation you've established, and realizing the virtual futility of offering this by way of any attempt at altering your perspective:

1) If Nic weren't in the picture in ANY way, and if the entirety of the west pilot group and AWA "dissappeared" via some magical-mystery-merger/partial sale tomorrow....

2) I'd still vote to have Alpa gone....period. This thought is not unique to myself, but far more common than you wish to perceive among east pilots. You've heard from others "untouched" by Nic out east..and yet...you...just...don't...get...it.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

2) I'd still vote to have Alpa gone....period. This thought is not unique to myself, but far more common than you wish to perceive among east pilots.

Ditto. It really is common. Too bad they don't believe it. ...sigh... Oh well.

 

[Watermelonman]

The election is upon us. There has been a lot of noise by both prospective representatives. Most of ALPA’s communication has been about the benefits of retaining ALPA. However, it really should focus on how devasting the proposed alternative would be.

If USAPA were a genuine union, one whose goals are to negotiate better pay, benefits, and working conditions for thier constituents, and if it had a sound plan to accomplish that, I might consider it. But USAPA is a “union†born of division-a direct contradiction in terms. Absent the seniority promise, USAPA has failed to even attempt to identify leverage or form a plan to negotiate a contract. Voting for USAPA as our bargaining agent may help to assuage your anger, but in the long run, it will only be to most pilots’ detriment.

Upon examination of the DOH promise, it is questionable at best. USAPA’s information correctly states that if chosen, it inherits all previous agreements. If USAPA’s promise is to be believed, they should add “except one†to this statement. All previous agreements includes both contracts, the transition agreement, and the seniority list-which has been presented to, and accepted by the company. USAPA will not adress this disparity of logic. Instead, USAPA’s purported ability to impose a DOH list relies on the advice of a dubious lawyer. Failing that, they are counting on Doug Parker’s willingness to undo his acceptance of the list, or the hope that USAPA will somehow find leverage to compel Parker to negotiate around that list. 

Add to all this USAPA’s own admission that it will propose a “cost neutral†contract. Is a “union†whose mantra is to parrot the company’s negotiating strategy trustworthy? USAPA organizers have already stated this is their intention-to sell out all pilots in order to benefit some. The seniority issue, the most compelling reason that most (East) pilots would choose USAPA, barely holds water.

But the most convincing reason not to choose USAPA is the long term affects this choice would have on all our careers. USAPA seeks to take this divided pilot group and divide it even further. The “divide and conquer†approach destabilizes the pilot group for a long time to come and devalues your leverage, and your ability to negotiate indefinetely. We are familiar with this management tactic. Even if USAPA were to succeed in changing the “awardâ€, the negative effects of our pilot group’s division will be felt for the our entire careers.

To ALPA’s credit, they have at least tried to unify us, through the Rice Committee, and steering committees (much to the anger of West pilots, who see these unprecendented, unwritten third and fourth steps in merger policy as direct favoritism of the East pilot group). Unity is the cornerstone of organized labor, and is what we will need to find to move forward.

ALPA has communicated extensivley about the benefits of ALPA membership, but has failed to recognize that there are indeed successful independent unions. However, USAPA has precious little chance of rising to anywhere near the level of APA or IPA.

In this election, the reasons for choosing ALPA have not so much to do with what ALPA is, but rather what ALPA is not. In this case they are simply the lesser of the two “evilsâ€, if you will. This is more true for the West than for the East, but upon close examination, it is true for all of us. An independent union may not be a bad choice at some later date, but it would need to be one built upon the unity and resolve of all US Airways pilots. USAPA can guarantee one thing-a bitter protracted battle in which the only winners will be lawyers. The other option at least holds the hope that we may find common ground. ALPA is the only available choice that has a chance of benefitting all US Airways pilots.

Many discount these arguments due to the source. But I believe there are more logical, rational thinkers on both sides of the debate than radicals. This choice is important to all of us, and should not be made out anger or despair, but with a clear view of what it means to our future.


Ian
Active AWA, Furloughed AAA (purged)

 

[AWA320]

And your going to "negotiate" with the company for 330 flying.....ONLY IF YOU 'UNDERBID" THE EAST could you POSSIBLY get any 330 flying....AKA WHIPSAW!!! If you think the COMPANY is going to pay you MORE so you can fly anything out EAST better think again and we will see who will decide WHO THE "SCABS" are here.

"Item, qe nul soit si hardy de crier havok sur peine davoir la test coupe."

By any means necessary that's the east motto and we just stole a page!! If you get whipsawed you have only yourselves to look to for this. But you know what I say right, cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war 😉

 

[EastUS]

By any means necessary that's the east motto and we just stole a page!! If you get whipsawed you have only yourselves to look to for this. But you know what I say right, cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war 😉

Be serious sir:

" But you know what I say.." Yes, yes we all most certainly do = "You won't even get 200 cards!!" and, of course: "Send the cards..I DARE you!!"..Additionally? = "I see a west pilot shutdown!!". Trust me on at least this = We ALL know what you "say" from many months of babblings, and you're clearly the finest possible representation the West can offer for it's "righteous Position" = a child...whining ..we've "gotten that".

PS: "But you know what I say right,"..actually?..that's the Bard's prose..and it's properly: "Cry Havoc!..and let slip the dogs of war!". Keep at it sir...one day..you may actually have the slightest tinge of an original "thought". As per "war"?? = I'm hoping that you were at least a highly decorated Cub Scout,with the proper martial training inherent therein......Has it EVER, for even an instant, occurred to the most chilidsh of you west-folk that actual, deadly War is indeed rampant in other deserts?...and being paid for, on our behalf by young lives while we post here...and you pathetic little twits mouth off about "WAR"??? A few months back; I attended a Lady friend to what would have been her son's birthday..at Arlington.`She insisted on going having "celebrated" his previous birthday there as well. I was meanwhile afforded the opportunity to "visit" an old friend I had not "seen" since 1991. You utterly disgusting little "IT's ALL about ME!! BS punks wouldn't begin to even comprehend that as any, even possible personal reality for yourselves....I'll admit = I find you, your AWA "Righteous Position" and pathetic "teenaged" babblings about "WAR" to be utterly disgusting, and fully beneath contempt. Just a suggestion to you heroic members of the AWA "Army of Leonidsa/etc/ad naseum = change your childish rhetoric, so as to at least appear less foolish. This is merely a union/labor issue..GROW UP.

 

[b737fo]

And your going to "negotiate" with the company for 330 flying.....ONLY IF YOU 'UNDERBID" THE EAST could you POSSIBLY get any 330 flying....AKA WHIPSAW!!! If you think the COMPANY is going to pay you MORE so you can fly anything out EAST better think again and we will see who will decide WHO THE "SCABS" are here.

"Item, qe nul soit si hardy de crier havok sur peine davoir la test coupe."

What if the West negotiates the exact same pay rates for the A330? Is that whipsawing? If the A330 shows up out West for limited Europe flying who does that belong to since neither group envisioned that in their "pre merger career expectations"?

 

[EastUS]

What if the West negotiates the exact same pay rates for the A330? Is that whipsawing? If the A330 shows up out West for limited Europe flying who does that belong to since neither group envisioned that in their "pre merger career expectations"?

What if a hundred Easter Bunnies pop outta' your a----?...Perhaps a thousand?....

Let's VOTE 😉

 

[sharktooth]

What if the West negotiates the exact same pay rates for the A330? Is that whipsawing? If the A330 shows up out West for limited Europe flying who does that belong to since neither group envisioned that in their "pre merger career expectations"?

Present A330?
Good luck taking off out of PHX or LAS on a hot, summer evening with enough payload to make the east coast, much less the maritime provinces. You might do a little research about what is possible and legal before tossing something like that on a table.

As far as "pre merger career expectations", the east group would be likely to entertain expectation of west to Europe vs the west group, as the east group already has the metal. Most on the east tend to keep their "expectations" reasonable without invoking changes to the laws of physics to achieve some alternative universe in order to allow their fantasies.

Expectations vs fantasies. Might try it sometime. 🙄

 

[end_of_alpa]

What if the West negotiates the exact same pay rates for the A330? Is that whipsawing? If the A330 shows up out West for limited Europe flying who does that belong to since neither group envisioned that in their "pre merger career expectations"?

Kirby said last fall and, especially now in a downturn, that international flying from PHX/LAS will not be established for several years and even then it would probably be to South America in limited form...one or two flights. I will never say never but the only odds of you flying anything heavy will occur only out East....in East crew bases. Your past "history" of losing huge money flying international out of PHX/LAS like you did with 747 are long gone.

The company cannot and already said they will not negotiate separately with the West.....ALPA National represents BOTH sides under one banner (for now). The NATIONAL MEDIATION BOARD...you know....the guys that DO make descisions that are "final and Binding" under statutory law as opposed to PRIVATE matters internal to union operations, like Constitutions and Bylaws......have said:

"The Board finds that East and West are operating as a single transportation system for representation purposes under the RLA."

You know, one transportation system, single representation for the "craft or class". These are the FACTS and I look forward to the lawsuit.

The Company has been negotiating contracts with unions as much if not more than ALPA....so they should know as well as anybody.

So when you SUE USAPA AND THE COMPANY, let's look at the FACTS the judge will see.

1. No joint contract between East and West after almost three years of STALEMATE. After every attempt was made, INCLUDING PRIVATE or INTERNAL UNION arbitration to decide an issue that was already complicated.

2. No change in control....aka "We bought you" or "We saved you" argument.....you can thank the IAM for their arbitration grievance for establishing that fact...http://www.iam141.org/PDF/US%20Airways/usa.01.07.08b.pdf

3. The attempt by USAPA "INTERIM" officers to bring the road show out to PHX and actually show that USAPA has the same or better products than ALPA to support our "craft or class" and such DISTAIN for fellow PILOTS that the show ended early due to...well....you watch the AWA tapes.

4. And the "piece de resistance" the overwhelming majority of pilots voting for a union that breaks the stalemate with a vote.....a vote for USAPA and a core foundation of DOH that mitigates the adverse affects of disparity with fences and restrictions. The case law overwhelmingly supports USAPA.

I was about to quote the SUPREME COURT again but realized it best to just save it for the court.

USAPA is ready to defend OUR CONSTITUTION AND OUR CONTRACT.

You will have a choice in that if USAPA is voted in, you can pay FULL dues, be a member and take a RIGHTFUL place in a union OR

you can choose to pay the germane dues as an agency fee objector, receive the benefits of the protection of the contract ONLY (minor dispute protection, which USAPA is required to defend IF your issue with the company merits the grievance).

If what your people at http://www.awappa.org/ wish to acheive....namely NUISANCE grievances with the company for the purposes of disrupting the current collective bargaining agent if that agent happens to be USAPA, you only do yourself AND your fellow pilots in the West a disservice. The dues YOU pay, whether germane OR all, will cost EVERYONE which only cuts your nose off to spite your face. But you WILL pay the germane expenses or LOSE YOUR JOB.

Those nefarious acts could introduce ramifications that may have serious effects for the settlement of ANY issues affecting collective bargaining for the resolution of minor disputes and could possibly lead to the loss of your job.

AWA320 doesn't care about YOUR job so let's ignore HIS retorts....but what about YOU? Do you want to lose your job?

 

[end_of_alpa]

The election is upon us. There has been a lot of noise by both prospective representatives. Most of ALPA’s communication has been about the benefits of retaining ALPA. However, it really should focus on how devasting the proposed alternative would be.

Body deleted for brevity

Ian
Active AWA, Furloughed AAA (purged)

Ian, how WRONG you are. The now THREE YEAR STALEMATE will continue under ALPA. The East MEC seeks nothing but to continue "SEPARATE BUT EQUAL" operations under ALPA....even Prater is SUPPORTING IT! Of course that is a FALSE promise when you consider that if the Nicolau award is the ONLY impediment to a joint contract can the West sue ALPA under a DFR thereby FORCING the East into a position to SUPPORT the Nicolau award UNFETTERED and forced back to the table to negotiate.

So if ALPA remains...YOU WILL, EVENTUALLY have the award. What the East MEC is telling ITS membership, including PRATER, are flat out LIES.

Your vote FOR ALPA and NICOLAU is every bit of the same reasons that the vote for USAPA is...so let's not mince words.

USAPA=DOH/fences and restrictions
ALPA=Nicolau

FACT: Majority chooses.

FACT: That is the way it works.

FACT: By the way, NO court will find DOH a "STAPLE JOB".

Dovetailing = Date of Hire
Endtailing = STAPLE

Courts words....not mine.

 

[AWA320]

Be serious sir:

" But you know what I say.." Yes, yes we all most certainly do = "You won't even get 200 cards!!" and, of course: "Send the cards..I DARE you!!"..Additionally? = "I see a west pilot shutdown!!". Trust me on at least this = We ALL know what you "say" from many months of babblings, and you're clearly the finest possible representation the West can offer for it's "righteous Position" = a child...whining ..we've "gotten that".

PS: "But you know what I say right,"..actually?..that's the Bard's prose..and it's properly: "Cry Havoc!..and let slip the dogs of war!". Keep at it sir...one day..you may actually have the slightest tinge of an original "thought". As per "war"?? = I'm hoping that you were at least a highly decorated Cub Scout,with the proper martial training inherent therein......Has it EVER, for even an instant, occurred to the most chilidsh of you west-folk that actual, deadly War is indeed rampant in other deserts?...and being paid for, on our behalf by young lives while we post here...and you pathetic little twits mouth off about "WAR"??? A few months back; I attended a Lady friend to what would have been her son's birthday..at Arlington.`She insisted on going having "celebrated" his previous birthday there as well. I was meanwhile afforded the opportunity to "visit" an old friend I had not "seen" since 1991. You utterly disgusting little "IT's ALL about ME!! BS punks wouldn't begin to even comprehend that as any, even possible personal reality for yourselves....I'll admit = I find you, your AWA "Righteous Position" and pathetic "teenaged" babblings about "WAR" to be utterly disgusting, and fully beneath contempt. Just a suggestion to you heroic members of the AWA "Army of Leonidsa/etc/ad naseum = change your childish rhetoric, so as to at least appear less foolish. This is merely a union/labor issue..GROW UP.

It is you that must and needs to be serious!! You choose a process and process mind you that you had over 18yrs to change and didn't then you cry like spoiled children when you didn't get to harm us? You east folk have lots of nerve!! Grow up?? You have be behaving like spoiled 3 yr olds and you feel justified in your comments and actions? No sir it is you that needs lesson on growing up.

Let slip, let loose it's all the same! It was sent as another east insult and it and it was translated for all to see your continued insults over us. In any event good sir the eve of destruction is upon us all I do hope that you have made proper preperations!!!!