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US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9

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Wow! Way to stereotype a whole group! This has got to be one of the most presumptuous and completely inaccurate posts I have seen in a long time. If you really believe your own characterization of the pilots who have been laid off during this cycle of furloughs then you are way out of touch with reality.


We all measure reality through our own eyes, furlo fodder. Having raised 3 millennials, Ive seen it first hand. Somehow they thought the law of economic cycles was repealed by Clinton/Bush and that all job movements were upward. Now there getting a dose of Econ 101 reality. They do have a family business to fall back on and 1 may end up back on the farm after graduation. After two downgrades (my first airline died with me at the outstation, talk about being naive), I realize this job is only temporary. You make the most out of it you can, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. If you got a problem with that, sorry. If your banking on your furlo being stopped by a lawsuit and have no plan “B,â€￾ you could be in for a hard lesson in Law 101. I think you got better chance with USAPA dispute arbitration. But even if USAPA wins and you come right back to work, it will be the same tired accusations. the snoop
 
For years ALPA negotiated across the table with an ALPA member management pilot
Grievances should have a time limit for management to respond if not the grievance should be awarded

I agree totally. The downside of that would be that the company would likely simply rubber-stamp all grievances as denied, forcing them into arbitration.

If the current vote at USAPA goes well, there will be no more union-member management pilots. They will be unceremoniously booted from the ranks of organized labor, which is where they should be anyway. It will also keep them out of union meetings, which I think is a good idea. They will still have their spies, of course, but at least discussion may be more open without the CP office in the room.
 
I have always been critical of the way ALPA negotiates contracts because they have no teeth. ALPA always took the company at their word, and the company always goes back on it. I had hoped that USAPA would come up with something different, but alas it appears that we are headed for yet another contract with no teeth.

The abuses will continue because, as you pointed out, there is no downside for the company to continue chipping away at the contract.

There should be punitive damages attached to the any grievance that is decided in favor of the employee. Maybe, for a first offense on any given contract section, a 10x compensation for the actual damages. If the same section is violated again, then a 100x punitive compensation.

If the company was willing to abide by its word, having language like this in the contract should not be a barrier to them. If they balk, it simply means that they have no intention of living up to their contractual obligations.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

As far as a one day SOS over the fuel issue, that is obviously a non-starter as it is so blatantly against federal law. And besides, look at the flack USAPA took for simply taking out that ad in USA Today. Can you imagine the fallout if they had taken illegal actions? The company, the press, the courts and the ever-so-supportive westies would have had a field day.

I (and practically all westies) actually agree with most of your above statement. And probably everyone, east & west, would agree on why USAPA appears to be on course to have another toothless contract in their sight. It's the simple result of having a divided house, built on the weak foundation of advancing one side at the expense of the other.
 
I agree totally. The downside of that would be that the company would likely simply rubber-stamp all grievances as denied, forcing them into arbitration.

If the current vote at USAPA goes well, there will be no more union-member management pilots. They will be unceremoniously booted from the ranks of organized labor, which is where they should be anyway. It will also keep them out of union meetings, which I think is a good idea. They will still have their spies, of course, but at least discussion may be more open without the CP office in the room.

I disagree. Many committees greatly need good communications with middle management to effectively assist and represent their fellow pilots. Training, HIMS, Aeromedical, Scheduling and many others function much better if the committee members are not alienated from the CP office and others in middle management.
 

Well, since you asked for it. Please feel free to print and distribute amongst your fellow crewmembers! :up: :up: :up:


AMERICA WEST PILOTS REQUEST YOUR
ASSISTANCE
In May of 2005, America West announced its intent to acquire US Airways, which was in
its second bankruptcy in only two years. The pilots from both airlines were represented
by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). Both pilot groups mutually agreed to have their
seniority integrated via binding arbitration in accordance with ALPA’s Merger Policy.
The US Airways pilots’ stance was primarily a date of hire list, while the America West pilots’
stance was more of a “relative seniority†list. Following many weeks of hearings,
thousands of pages of transcripts, and hundreds of exhibits, Arbitrator George Nicolau issued
the final and binding integrated seniority list in May of 2007.
The pre-merger US Airways pilots were infuriated by the outcome, primarily because
their leadership had told them to expect a “date-of-hire†list, which would have placed
over 80% of the America West pilots at the bottom of the seniority list. It must be noted
that America West (which was not in bankruptcy, nor facing liquidation), was only
twenty-three years old at the time of the merger, while at US Airways, a date-of-hire
over eighteen years prior was required to hold any pilot job at all.
As a means to avoid the results of the agreed to arbitration, the pre-merger US Airways
pilots formed the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) which replaced ALPA as the bargaining
agent for both groups. USAPA's primary mission is to attempt to disregard the
arbitrator’s decision and impose a ‘date-of-hire’ seniority integration on the America
West pilots.
You may be asking, “why do I care what is happening to the America West pilots?†No
matter what your feelings are about the seniority issue, the fact of the matter is that a
legal process was followed and agreed to by all parties. The larger group did not like the
outcome and decided they were going to do anything to get what they felt entitled to.
Many disputes are handled through binding arbitration and all parties accept the risk of
not getting what they feel they deserve. If the America West Pilots lose this battle, it will
likely affect every merger and arbitration, both in the past, and in future at any airline in
the United States.
The America West pilots have formed an organization, Leonidas LLC, to help protect the
legal rights of all former America West pilots. Under the guidance of Marty Harper of the
law firm Shughart, Thomsom & Kilroy based in Phoenix, AZ, we have filed several lawsuits
against USAPA and US Airways to protect our legal rights under our contract and
the agreed to (by arbitration) seniority list. These lawsuits come with a high cost for our
vastly outnumbered pilot group. This matter is of vital importance to all crewmembers
of every airline in the US. Your support will help insure that the rights of all workers
(and not just those of the larger group) are upheld in this, and in all airline mergers.
To make a contribution, please visit:
www.cactuspilot.org/Colleague_Contributions
Join the fight to help protect our (and your) careers, families, and legal rights from being
destroyed by a “union†who is not interested in protecting the rights of the minority within.
For more information about Leonidas LLC, please go to www.cactuspilot.com
 
I agree with one thing. If the AWA pilots lose this case it certainly will have an effect on future mergers and arbitrations - a positive one.

Merger policy will change for the better and arbitrations will become obsolete.
 
USAPA vs america west pilots


Your pilots were involved in activity that is against the law. The link above explains. If it is not true, why are you not suing for defamation for those that are accusing you of defication. You keep bringing up the denial. Dumb.

nostrodamus

One huge reason the cactus 18 are not countersuing is they are afraid that USAPA will be gone before they could collect any judgement. Costing them out of pocket to win against an organization that will not be around to pay up.

None of our pilots were involved in illegal activity, a federal judge has already said so, what remains to be seen is wether USAPA has been involved in illegal activity(i.e. forming a union in order to harm a minority group, libelous actions against potential members, discrimination based on sex.. etc.)

However, after the appeal is tossed from court, if USAPA decides to seek remedy in a state court, I believe you will see countersuits filed seeking very large sums for USAPA's illegal, maliscious, defamating libelous actions. I could be wrong though.
 
one other thing

Just read a USAPA update regarding the Leonidas suit in which they claim it is very difficult to be granted a motion to dismiss in court.

I guess it was not so difficult for the cactus 18 who got their dismisal in record time, against USAPA's frivolous suit.

It is difficult only if your case has no merit.
 
I agree with one thing. If the AWA pilots lose this case it certainly will have an effect on future mergers and arbitrations - a positive one.

Merger policy will change for the better and arbitrations will become obsolete.

Do none of you east guys read the news or keep up on the industry. Has USAPA controlled your world so completely that you are only mushrooms?

A new law was passed within the year. Any mergers not same union to same union use A/M.

That means arbitration.

Maybe you think that USAPA has set the precedent that the larger majority will simply negotiate the new seniority list with management disregarding the minority from now on.

Careful what you wish for.
 
I thought we merged more than 3 years, so I guess that "new" law won't pertain to us.

Try to keep his comment in context.

I agree with one thing. If the AWA pilots lose this case it certainly will have an effect on future mergers and arbitrations - a positive one.

Merger policy will change for the better and arbitrations will become obsolete.
 
I thought we merged more than 3 years, so I guess that "new" law won't pertain to us.

But, I assume that you are correct. Although the new law probably won't actually come into play, it does illustrate the sanctity that the executive, legislative and judicial branches of our government have for the ultimate fairness and finality of binding arbitration. If you have any question regarding such, you may wish to read-up on the new law.
 
But, I assume that you are correct. Although the new law probably won't actually come into play, it does illustrate the sanctity that the executive, legislative and judicial branches of our government have for the ultimate fairness and finality of binding arbitration. If you have any question regarding such, you may wish to read-up on the new law.


Quite a bit of difference from that law and ALPA merger policy. One is an internal mechanism to solve seniority issues and the other is a legislative required arbitration. Don't confuse a judge ordered arbitration or one required by law with an union mechanism to arrive at "bargaining position." If the judge were to take any action on seniority at all, it may be to require an A/M arbitration but more likely the West pilots will simply be fighting a protracted DFR legal battle that will last a decade.
 
If the judge were to take any action on seniority at all, it may be to require an A/M arbitration but more likely the West pilots will simply be fighting a protracted DFR legal battle that will last a decade.

We'll hopefully see how all of our prognostications turn out in a few days. It would be nice if the decision points the way toward the eventual outcome...it may only muddy the water further. I would hope that we could all agree that a decade long DFR battle is in no one's best interest. The Hybrid DFR (first of probably several DFR's) is expected to go forward in January, 2009. I doubt we will see any contract negotiated when the primary point of contention is being debated in court. I don't wish to see you or us working under the present conditions for the nest decade.
 
nostrodamus

One huge reason the cactus 18 are not countersuing is they are afraid that USAPA will be gone before they could collect any judgement. Costing them out of pocket to win against an organization that will not be around to pay up.

None of our pilots were involved in illegal activity, a federal judge has already said so, what remains to be seen is wether USAPA has been involved in illegal activity(i.e. forming a union in order to harm a minority group, libelous actions against potential members, discrimination based on sex.. etc.)

However, after the appeal is tossed from court, if USAPA decides to seek remedy in a state court, I believe you will see countersuits filed seeking very large sums for USAPA's illegal, maliscious, defamating libelous actions. I could be wrong though.

I may not be that familiar with Libel laws but I don't believe a group can be sued for Libel or Slander. Individuals would be a different story.

MM
 
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