US Pilot Labor Thread 11/3-11/9

[oldiebutgoody]

So now you consider USAPA as your bargaining agent, when you think a judge is looking over your shoulder. The america west pilots refuse to pay dues, but consider USAPA as their union.

Yea, you know,

Integrity matters.

Or so they keep spouting at every opportunity.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's wrong. It was cited by the arbitrator in both the PSA and Piedmont/UsAir mergers as a basis for LOS integration.

But not used explicitly to merge the groups in those mergers - ALPA merger policy was.

Read what I said, carefully and slowly this time:

"No one has yet pointed to a single case of the A-M LPPs resulting in a DOH/LOS integration of pilot groups since deregulation.

The original A/M merger was essentially DOH.

"Essentially" DOH is just another way of saying it wasn't done by straight DOH...and that's the merger that gave birth to the A-M LPPs. I'll say it again:

No one has yet pointed to a single case of the A-M LPPs resulting in a DOH/LOS integration of pilot groups since deregulation.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Okay, I'll ask. What is so special or sacred about deregulation as the dividing line when it comes to airline pilot mergers?

 

[Piedmont1984]

"Essentially" DOH is just another way of saying it wasn't done by straight DOH...and that's the merger that gave birth to the A-M LPPs. I'll say it again:


Jim

Ergo, DOH with conditions and restrictions.

 

[nostradamus]

Some posters on this board consider themselves defending justice in pilot mergers. This same poster did not say one word when the Empire pilots were stapled to the bottom of the Piedmont list, because it benefited them.

The height of hypocrisy.

I am not refering to piedmont 1984, his message has always been consistent.

 

[cleardirect]

Read up on A/M provisions and precedent. Learn about its strong bias toward DOH or LOS merger methodology. In fact, without explicitly saying so - in practice, A/M equate LOS with fair and equitable.

I have looked but can not find the A/M language. Could someone post the document?

When was the last time A/M was used to merge a pilot group?

Kind of a weak statement I would say. A “strong biasâ€￾ and “without explicitly sayingâ€￾. That is pretty soft legal language.

 

[nostradamus]

america west pilots interpetation of the recent legal proceedings.


"The morning debate focused primarily on our request for injunctive relief, which is largely based upon USAPA’s DFR conduct. There was a lengthy discussion over what remedy was within the court’s jurisdiction, the legal issues involved and the conduct of the defendants. The judge repeatedly returned to the company’s right to not use a combined list until a joint contract was implemented"


No dues, no DFR.

No agreement, separate ops.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I have looked but can not find the A/M language. Could someone post the document?

When was the last time A/M was used to merge a pilot group?

Kind of a weak statement I would say. A “strong biasâ€￾ and “without explicitly sayingâ€￾. That is pretty soft legal language.

Do I have to explain how to use "Google"? Put in "Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs" and see what you get.

In as much as the A/M LPPs are included in ALL ALPA contracts that I know of, then explain to me how it hasn't been an integral part of recent mergers already. I would even wager that it is in the old AWA pilot contract. The only issue with this one is that it was IGNORED.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Some posters on this board consider themselves defending justice in pilot mergers. This same poster did not say one word when the Empire pilots were stapled to the bottom of the Piedmont list, because it benefited them.

The height of hypocrisy.

I am not refering to piedmont 1984, his message has always been consistent.

That same poster is apparently STILL PO'd that he didn't get his windfall in the US/PI merger. Now that he's gone he can try for vindication that won't cost him anything. I'll bet if he were still on board, and about to be junior to some guy hired 15 years or more later, and would likely never again see a left seat, his tune would be different. That scenario will occur to many East folks if the Nic were implemented, even thought they would have upgraded and held left seats for 10 or more years if the merger hadn't occurred.

 

[nycbusdriver]

What is the difference between A/M arbitration and “Nic typeâ€￾ arbitration?

ALPA's nebulous "policy" doesn't apply to A/M arbitration.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"No one has yet pointed to a single case of the A-M LPPs resulting in a DOH/LOS integration of pilot groups since deregulation.

Wow. That sounds like a powerful challenge. And it might be a powerful challenge if anyone can point to a single case of A/M LPPs applied to pilot groups since deregulation where something OTHER than DOH/LOS integration was used.

 

[nostradamus]

That same poster is apparently STILL PO'd that he didn't get his windfall in the US/PI merger. Now that he's gone he can try for vindication that won't cost him anything. I'll bet if he were still on board, and about to be junior to some guy hired 15 years or more later, and would likely never again see a left seat, his tune would be different. That scenario will occur to many East folks if the Nic were implemented, even thought they would have upgraded and held left seats for 10 or more years if the merger hadn't occurred.

It reminds me of a pilot that worked for united and obviously an alpa plant. This pilot was on this board many times a day defending the view of the west pilots. Until another merger possibility with Us Airways that included west pilots was announced, not seen since.

NIMBY. Not in my back yard strikes again.

 

[Phoenix]

Okay, I'll ask. What is so special or sacred about deregulation as the dividing line when it comes to airline pilot mergers?

:unsure:...................................

 

[BoeingBoy]

Okay, I'll ask. What is so special or sacred about deregulation as the dividing line when it comes to airline pilot mergers?

Sorry, I must have missed it when you asked before.

Before deregulation, he CAB imposed merger solutions. The A-M LPPs became the template that the CAB used. Once the CAB was no longer a factor, and the DOT said that they would not impose any LPPs, the unions had to write their own merger language - both the policy the union would use and get it into the contracts. So deregulation marks the dividing line between A-M LPPs and union specified merger policies.

Of course, there's parallel discussions that we could have concerning the type of airline mergers that occured before and after deregulation and the effects of the industry revolving around the economic cycle but that's fodder for another day.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Wow. That sounds like a powerful challenge. And it might be a powerful challenge if anyone can point to a single case of A/M LPPs applied to pilot groups since deregulation where something OTHER than DOH/LOS integration was used.

I know of no case where two pilot groups used the A-M LPPs in the post-deregulation world. That's not to say that there weren't any, but no one has come up with an example yet.

Jim