US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[EastUS]

QUOTE (USPHX @ Dec 5 2008, 04:51 PM)
We have this odd custom out West, as exemplified by west pilots, our word is our bond. Once the handshake is done it is FINAL and BINDING, even if in hindsight you are kicking yourself. No "yeah but's", no "I had my fingers crossed", no "the arbitrator was senile". Nicolau was not the perfect solution for west pilots, either, but you didn't see any temper tantrums out here.

We Westy f/a's are not particularly thrilled with DOH integration, as is required by our AFA agreement. Any one who goes back on their word is a loser in my book. Hence, a group of individuals that go back on their word in tandem is a "collective bunch of losers". I stand by my statement.

Did you guys not try to change the DOH for FAs in the beginning? Were you not around to remember that little movement? So in your own words:

Any one who goes back on their word is a loser in my book. Hence, a group of individuals that go back on their word in tandem is a "collective bunch of losers".

Enjoy PHX....and what will be left of it.

"We have this odd custom out West, as exemplified by west pilots, our word is our bond. Once the handshake is done it is FINAL and BINDING,.." Umm..unless that pesky old DOH that's in the AFA's charter doesn't benefit MEEE!!! of course...in which case, all bets are off an everything ought to be changed to suit MEEE!!

Fair's fair here though:. Any group that can fantasize themselves as heroic Spartan warriors in the "Army" of Leonidas can't reasonbly be expected not to entertain equally childish fantasies about having the utmost in "Integrity".

 

[Phoenix]

Hello Jim,

Since the AFA DOH policy was already in place, it would be 'after the fact'. 'In the beginning' does not refer to the policy, but the merger.

They knew and accepted this policy before the merge, but tried to change it after the fact (of the merger). There was no outcome to accept except that the motion was DOA.

Valid points.

Key difference #1 - AFA had a defined policy.
Key difference #2 - AFA took responsibility to execute their policy.
Key difference #3 - There is hardly a peep.

An object lesson in integrity.

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, after the merger was announced but before the combined list was published as I recall. Maybe before the merger was consumated, but I'm not sure about that.

Aw, integrity - is that trying everything to change the outcome including changing unions after a final and binding arbitration and the list was published?

Jim

Naw Jim, we know those low life east guys have no integrity, I'm just amazed that the keepers of all that is good and pure out west would even venture that way! Again, for about a hundred times, I didn't support the chosen path.

BTW, did you ever see the "goat video" produce by a west pilot? You would be proud of the boys you are pulling for.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The arbitration occurred in the context of and by authority of the ALPA SLI policy. All the terms defining that policy are necessary and to discount any part of the policy is to effectively abandon the policy all together. To assert that any of the terms of the SLI policy are to be selectively applicable is absurd. For ALPA to enforce some terms and exclude others would be a failure of representational responsibility.

So sue ALPA for DFR and prove your opinion valid. That would solve all the East's problems - ALPA and the Nic both gone. Otherwise it's just an opinion...

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Naw Jim, we know those low life east guys have no integrity, I'm just amazed that the keepers of all that is good and pure out west would even venture that way! Again, for about a hundred times, I didn't support the chosen path.

BTW, did you ever see the "goat video" produce by a west pilot? You would be proud of the boys you are pulling for.

Ah yes. Who could ever forget the Great Alpa Goat Film..in all it's "Integrity" laden glory? ...said westie "Integrity" not being suitable for viewing audiences not enamoured of farm animals..much less any containing children. I wasn't much at all impressed by that little gem's reflection on the flying profession. :angry:

 

[Phoenix]

So sue ALPA for DFR and prove your opinion valid. That would solve all the East's problems - ALPA and the Nic both gone. Otherwise it's just an opinion...

Jim

The premise that right and wrong can only be known once a third party tells you what to think is a week attempt at feigned ignorance.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The premise that right and wrong can only be known once a third party tells you what to think is a week attempt at feigned ignorance.

Legal premises have only one test for right or wrongness - the court. Not even lawyers have such massive egos as to believe that they're the final authority on legal right and wrong.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Again, for about a hundred times, I didn't support the chosen path.

Try to keep up. I didn't mention your name in the post you quoted.

You would be proud of the boys you are pulling for.

Double keep up. You're assuming that I'm pulling for the pilots of one side, which I've never claimed. I'm pulling for what I consider a fair settlement. Try to get it right...

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

The premise that right and wrong can only be known once a third party tells you what to think is a week attempt at feigned ignorance.

Right and wrong is always discoverable by anyone, but the truth is far more likely to be discovered by an objective third party long before it is discovered by a party which also has an interest in the outcome. That is just human nature and it is because of this fact that our legal system is designed the way it is. The concept focuses on the process, not the result. You and your fellow pilots, on the other hand, care not about the process but rather about the result. If DOH had come down from the arbitration, then your side wouldn't have been referring to Nicolau as a senile old man nor would you have left ALPA. Heck, I doubt the East would have cared if it had been OJ Simpson himself grabbing the DOH Chalice from the Palace Station and delivering it to your doorstep in May of '07 - you would have taken it gladly. Why? Because the result concurs with your subjective expectations and in your world, meeting the expectations of the East is all that matters.

I am convinced that for the most part the East will never understand the distinction between the process and results. I doubt most wll even to make an effort to understand, so talking anymore is pointless. We don't need to be united. This was Doug's idea to marry the two pilot groups, so he can fix it. West pilots can care less at this point because it's becoming ever so clear that the judge will do what he needs to do and that will be it as far as the West is concerned.

 

[Phoenix]

Legal premises have only one test for right or wrongness - the court. Not even lawyers have such massive egos as to believe that they're the final authority on legal right and wrong.

Jim

The argument that ALPA had an obligation to uphold its SLI policy in its entirety is self-evident. Even you accuse USAPA of selecting which portions of the TA they favor. It is inconsistent and disingenuous to make allowance for ALPA's right to selectively apply portions of their SLI policy.

 

[Phoenix]

Right and wrong is always discoverable by anyone, but the truth is far more likely to be discovered by an objective third party...

ALPA would be a lot better off if they had accepted their role as the third party.

 

[Pi brat]

Right and wrong is always discoverable by anyone, but the truth is far more likely to be discovered by an objective third party long before it is discovered by a party which also has an interest in the outcome. That is just human nature and it is because of this fact that our legal system is designed the way it is. The concept focuses on the process, not the result. You and your fellow pilots, on the other hand, care not about the process but rather about the result. If DOH had come down from the arbitration, then your side wouldn't have been referring to Nicolau as a senile old man nor would you have left ALPA. Heck, I doubt the East would have cared if it had been OJ Simpson himself grabbing the DOH Chalice from the Palace Station and delivering it to your doorstep in May of '07 - you would have taken it gladly. Why? Because the result concurs with your subjective expectations and in your world, meeting the expectations of the East is all that matters.

I am convinced that for the most part the East will never understand the distinction between the process and results. I doubt most wll even to make an effort to understand, so talking anymore is pointless. We don't need to be united. This was Doug's idea to marry the two pilot groups, so he can fix it. West pilots can care less at this point because it's becoming ever so clear that the judge will do what he needs to do and that will be it as far as the West is concerned.

If it really is about the process, why do the west pilots have a problem with USAPA? The process is what gave it birth. And don't ya mean "couldn't care less"?. If you could care less, it's bothering you.

 

[Pi brat]

Try to keep up. I didn't mention your name in the post you quoted.



Double keep up. You're assuming that I'm pulling for the pilots of one side, which I've never claimed. I'm pulling for what I consider a fair settlement. Try to get it right...

Jim

I have kept up Jim. I've watched you tear into east posters, even when they agree with you, because of your desire to beat the DOH out of them. You are so blinded by your position that you, like some west posters, lump all east pilots together.

 

[Phoenix]

If it really is about the process, why do the west pilots have a problem with USAPA? The process is what gave it birth...

It isn't fair and equitable?

 

[aquagreen73s]

If it really is about the process, why do the west pilots have a problem with USAPA? The process is what gave it birth. And don't ya mean "couldn't care less"?. If you could care less, it's bothering you.

USAPA's "process" is anything but fair. What's more, there is a federal judge in the Phoenix area named Neil Wake who is also very suspicious of your exhalted process which just happens (in the judge's words) to result in the East getting 100% of the benefit and the West getting 100% of the detriment. This after the East fully participated in a well established practice called arbitration and never once did they object to that first process - until the result.

And really, I am totally apathetic once the litigation is finished. Sure there will be an appeal by USAPA, but there isn't an appellate court in the entire United States who will reverse Judge Wake. Trying to deal with the East is pointless.