US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[exB717Flyer]

Because of your post where you claim to have the answer to career expectations.

I do have the answer: career expectations are either what both sides agree they are or what an arbitrator decides. Mr. Nicolau explained his reasoning very clearly. The fact that many or most Easties disagree with him is a matter of unrealistic demands and expectations.

Bottom line: I was prepared to live with Nicolau's decision because I understand what 'binding' means. And I stated this long before he rendered his decision. You don't get to out vote a binding arbitration and Judge Wake will prove this to you in a couple of months.

 

[Pi brat]

Unfortunately, all the arguments against NIC boil down to "It's not DOH." That does nothing to bridge the chasm between the two sides, even here where it probably doesn't matter anyway.

Jim

Not mine Jim. If you address my posts keep that in mind.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi Brat,

The F/A already do that when now flying with the west pilots.

Just what are you not so subtlety implying? That the west pilots do not treat our F/A with respect? That we do not take care of them?

If you knew anything about us or the way we work together you would know what a foolish statement you just made.

cleardirect,

Where did I say anything about west pilots? Do you guys see bad guys behind every bush? The poster called us collective bunch of losers, I addressed that. It's not all about you.

 

[Pi brat]

I do have the answer: career expectations are either what both sides agree they are or what an arbitrator decides. Mr. Nicolau explained his reasoning very clearly. The fact that many or most Easties disagree with him is a matter of unrealistic demands and expectations.

Bottom line: I was prepared to live with Nicolau's decision because I understand what 'binding' means. And I stated this long before he rendered his decision. You don't get to out vote a binding arbitration and Judge Wake will prove this to you in a couple of months.

No you don't have the answer. Career expectations are what each pilot has in his/her head. If they are valid is another question that is only answered after they retire.

Bottom line: You don't KNOW what will come out of the court case. I happen to THINK your side will probably prevail, but I don't KNOW.

You guys need to get your anger in check.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not mine Jim. If you address my posts keep that in mind.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I took posts like these to be a preference for starting with DOH on your part:

"I have agreed with you that it [DOH-Jim] has issues, I just think that with conditions and restrictions it is closer to fair than the Nic award."

"However, if the definition of "seniority" is disallowed from acknowledging the number of times said pilots have successfully passed the yearly battery of tests and evaluations inherent to the profession, then such defined "seniority" is at odds with the very notion of "profession".

"Although I don't think DOH is the only way to merge a list, I think the amount of time served should be a consideration."

In fairness, you also had posts like this:

"Any system could be used to make a (mostly)fair list if the C&R are right, but that is very hard to do and the huge difference in seniority with this group made it even harder."

But even with that sentiment, I took it you preferred DOH as the starting point (and note that you used "seniority" as being equivalent to "DOH"). That is the idea I was (perhaps badly) trying to put across. While different East posters provide various reasons why DOH should be the starting point, they all have "DOH should be the starting point" in common. None that are against the NIC say "Let's just modify the Nic with different C&R's.'

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

cleardirect,

Where did I say anything about west pilots? Do you guys see bad guys behind every bush? The poster called us collective bunch of losers, I addressed that. It's not all about you.

And now you say had your fingers crossed behind you're back..... so it doesn't really count. What a bunch of pathetic cry babies. As a west flight attendant, I can't wait until I have the pleasure to fly with you collective bunch of losers. NOT

Incorrect!

The poster I believe called the east pilots a “collective bunch of losersâ€￾ Because as a west F/A she is already flying with us. So the east would be new to her/him. Therefore the “I can’t wait …NOTâ€￾ statement.

No I don’t see bad guys under every bush I see very clearly when someone tries a backhanded insult. Then pretends innocence.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Career expectations are what each pilot has in his/her head.

Well, DUH, but what you or I have in our head is irrelevent. What matters is what's in George Nicolau's head. We gave him the authority to make that determination and he did.

I happen to THINK your side will probably prevail, but I don't KNOW.

This brings up an interesting thought. If justice prevails and USAPA loses the case where does that leave the Easties? All that trouble to dump ALPA and set up a new union and nothing to show for it. I should print some t-shirts that read, "I DUMPED ALPA BUT ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT".

I realize even if the East loses the case they'll feel happy since they've delayed the Nicolau list for so long. Ooops, Judge Wake might assign damages that cost every East pilot dearly. Maybe it wasn't so worth it after all...

You guys need to get your anger in check.

You're in no position to tell me what to do with my anger. We're about to have another displacement bid which will likely mean my furlough -- while East pilots recalled after the merger will keep thier jobs. I believe I'm directing my anger very properly indeed.

 

[USPHX]

Where did I say anything about west pilots? Do you guys see bad guys behind every bush? The poster called us collective bunch of losers, I addressed that. It's not all about you.

We have this odd custom out West, as exemplified by west pilots, our word is our bond. Once the handshake is done it is FINAL and BINDING, even if in hindsight you are kicking yourself. No "yeah but's", no "I had my fingers crossed", no "the arbitrator was senile". Nicolau was not the perfect solution for west pilots, either, but you didn't see any temper tantrums out here.

We Westy f/a's are not particularly thrilled with DOH integration, as is required by our AFA agreement. Do you see us stomping our feet and throwing a hissy fit or starting a movement to throw out AFA? No, we accept it as agreed and move forward. You're implication that we won't see any flying out east by your statement: "Since the AFA dictated DOH, I doubt we will see you out east" may or may not be true. It is, however, a thinly veiled admission(gloating) that DOH is NOT equitable. Go figure.

Any one who goes back on their word is a loser in my book. Hence, a group of individuals that go back on their word in tandem is a "collective bunch of losers". I stand by my statement.

 

[Pi brat]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I took posts like these to be a preference for starting with DOH on your part:

"I have agreed with you that it [DOH-Jim] has issues, I just think that with conditions and restrictions it is closer to fair than the Nic award."

"However, if the definition of "seniority" is disallowed from acknowledging the number of times said pilots have successfully passed the yearly battery of tests and evaluations inherent to the profession, then such defined "seniority" is at odds with the very notion of "profession".

"Although I don't think DOH is the only way to merge a list, I think the amount of time served should be a consideration."

In fairness, you also had posts like this:

"Any system could be used to make a (mostly)fair list if the C&R are right, but that is very hard to do and the huge difference in seniority with this group made it even harder."

But even with that sentiment, I took it you preferred DOH as the starting point (and note that you used "seniority" as being equivalent to "DOH"). That is the idea I was (perhaps badly) trying to put across. While different East posters provide various reasons why DOH should be the starting point, they all have "DOH should be the starting point" in common. None that are against the NIC say "Let's just modify the Nic with different C&R's.'

Jim

Jim,

You haven't kept up, and either you or this board are confusing posts. Some of those quotes you attribute to me are not mine. Let me summarize how I feel about it:

1)When this whole mess started I told everyone that I didn't think DOH would fly.
2) I believe that if you are going to use a time in service type integration, LOS is more fair.
3)I believe that DOH with C&Rs is more fair than the Nic award, but what I think does not matter-it will be what the judge thinks.
3) I think the east MEC made a huge mistake in it's actions during the process.
4) Even though I think the Nic award is out of the park, if there is no legal and ethical away around it, I will live with it. For this reason, I did not vote for USAPA.
5) I think the 5% ers on both sides of this have shown their rear ends, and are an embarrassment.

 

[Pi brat]

We have this odd custom out West, as exemplified by west pilots, our word is our bond. Once the handshake is done it is FINAL and BINDING, even if in hindsight you are kicking yourself. No "yeah but's", no "I had my fingers crossed", no "the arbitrator was senile". Nicolau was not the perfect solution for west pilots, either, but you didn't see any temper tantrums out here.

We Westy f/a's are not particularly thrilled with DOH integration, as is required by our AFA agreement. Do you see us stomping our feet and throwing a hissy fit or starting a movement to throw out AFA? No, we accept it as agreed and move forward. You're implication that we won't see any flying out east by your statement: "Since the AFA dictated DOH, I doubt we will see you out east" may or may not be true. It is, however, a thinly veiled admission that DOH is NOT equitable. Go figure.

Any one who goes back on their word is a loser in my book. Hence, a group of individuals that go back on their word in tandem is a "collective bunch of losers". I stand by my statement.

You don't know what you are talking about. You don't know me, and you don't know my actions. I am a member of a group because I work with them and I have spoken out to the group many times when I see their actions as unfair. I cannot control the whole group.

There is no thinly veiled anything. Your union dictated DOH, so even if you were at AWA when it started, you are junior to most east F/As. I doubt you will will use your DOH out here, but I could be wrong, junior reserve in BOS isn't so bad.

You don't see any tantrums out there? Are you blind? USAPA legally won the election, and there has been a parade of tantrums ever since! Have you seen the videos? Did you catch the news report when the doll was hung form a cockpit in STL? Do you not see the STUPID stickers and pins paraded up and down your terminals? Give me a break.

I see you changed your signature. Like Abe better that the trailer park folks?

 

[pilotn79]

Bottom line: You don't KNOW what will come out of the court case. I happen to THINK your side will probably prevail, but I don't KNOW.
You guys need to get your anger in check.

Why do you think we would prevail? Is is it because deep down inside you know you are trying to get away with not fulfilling your obligation to a process your side agreed to? Maybe you see the Judge may plug the holes that allowed the East to escape the binding part of the process?

I'm not angry, just looking forward to justice being served. See you in court. I will be there...again.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, DUH, but what you or I have in our head is irrelevent. What matters is what's in George Nicolau's head. We gave him the authority to make that determination and he did.This brings up an interesting thought. If justice prevails and USAPA loses the case where does that leave the Easties? All that trouble to dump ALPA and set up a new union and nothing to show for it. I should print some t-shirts that read, "I DUMPED ALPA BUT ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT".

I realize even if the East loses the case they'll feel happy since they've delayed the Nicolau list for so long. Ooops, Judge Wake might assign damages that cost every East pilot dearly. Maybe it wasn't so worth it after all...You're in no position to tell me what to do with my anger. We're about to have another displacement bid which will likely mean my furlough -- while East pilots recalled after the merger will keep thier jobs. I believe I'm directing my anger very properly indeed.

It's amazing that you can read every single guys mind. Just like your F/A friend, you can see all our thoughts and all our actions.

I'm truly sorry that you are getting furloughed. I hate that anyone is. At the very least I think you should be paid until the new hires are gone. I hope you can find something better than this place, if you choose to. Good luck

 

[Pi brat]

Why do you think we would prevail? Is is it because deep down inside you know you are trying to get away with not fulfilling your obligation to a process your side agreed to? Maybe you see the Judge may plug the holes that allowed the East to escape the binding part of the process?

I'm not angry, just looking forward to justice being served. See you in court. I will be there...again.

Because I don't think you can go to binding arbitration and then get out of it. That can't be can it? I'm an east guy. Jim and all his buddies say we all believe some other way. Just because I believe the Nic award is unfair it doesn't mean I don't think I have to live with it.

 

[USPHX]

You might enjoy flying with people that treat you as professionals, try to make your job better and try to look our for you.


Oh, you mean "professionals" that go back on their word and then throw a monkey wrench in contract negotiations that not only affect all pilots but west AND east F/A'S.? You Easty pilots sure have a funny way of "looking out for" your east FA coworkers.

There is no thinly veiled anything.

My point exactly. You are gloating over the fact that DOH throws west FA's under the bus, with a smirk bigger than O.J.'s.

Your union dictated DOH, so even if you were at AWA when it started, you are junior to most east F/As. I doubt you will will use your DOH out here, but I could be wrong, junior reserve in BOS isn't so bad.

When we get a joint contract if my seniority only allows me to hold junior reserve in BOS, than so be it. I'll go to BOS witth a smile on my face and with pride that at least my ethics and integrity are intact.


You don't see any tantrums out there?

Just to clarify, the "tantrum" I was referring to was the collective bunch of losers throwing the baby out with the bathwater in voting in USAPA when FINAL and BINDING arbitration didn't 100% favor the east's position of DOH....NOT individual tantrums and childish behavior that has been (and I'm sure will continue to be) exhibited on both sides.


I see you changed your signature. Like Abe better that the trailer park folks?

No, I LIVE in a trailier park so I like trailer park folks just fine. But, I guess the humor in that would escape those on this board who don't know me, so I changed it. You got a problem with Abe, too???

 

[pilotn79]

Because I don't think you can go to binding arbitration and then get out of it. That can't be can it? I'm an east guy. Jim and all his buddies say we all believe some other way. Just because I believe the Nic award is unfair it doesn't mean I don't think I have to live with it.
[/quote

Nic was a compromise position based on a company formed in 2005. We all brought varied experience and backgrounds to this airline. Things did not turn out as I expected in my 30 years of flying. Staring in the late 80's, I have experienced the sting of having to start over because of circumstances beyond my control. It is unfortunate that things did not turn out with your career expectations but that's life.