US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[Pi brat]

It isn't fair and equitable?

It seems that most west posters on here switch between the "fair and equitable" and "it's was the process that counts" argument depending on how it suits there point of view. See how I said most Jim? I don't want to lump everyone together.

 

[Pi brat]

USAPA's "process" is anything but fair. What's more, there is a federal judge in the Phoenix area named Neil Wake who is also very suspicious of your exhalted process which just happens (in the judge's words) to result in the East getting 100% of the benefit and the West getting 100% of the detriment. This after the East fully participated in a well established practice called arbitration and never once did they object to that first process - until the result.

And really, I am totally apathetic once the litigation is finished. Sure there will be an appeal by USAPA, but there isn't an appellate court in the entire United States who will reverse Judge Wake. Trying to deal with the East is pointless.
[/quote

I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. I was talking about USAPA's election as our CBA.

 

[aquagreen73s]

[/quote

I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. I was talking about USAPA's election as our CBA.
[/quote]

You actually were clear; I didn't read it right.

USAPA's election was motivated by the result of the arbitration. They are an independent union and if there is another merger, then under the McCaskill-Bond legislation they will be forced to follow a process nearly identical to the one which they complain of. What will they do then? Decertify themselves?

On a side note, a NWA pilot told me today that the arbitration decision is due out on Monday for the NWA-DAL pilots. Should be interesting to read.

 

[EastUS]

Right and wrong is always discoverable by anyone, but the truth is far more likely to be discovered by an objective third party long before it is discovered by a party which also has an interest in the outcome. ....Why? Because the result concurs with your subjective expectations and in your world, meeting the expectations of the East is all that matters.

I am convinced that for the most part the East will never understand the distinction between the process and results.

Aquagreen73s Posted on: Oct 13 2005, 10:22 PM in response to: "Anytime a union fails in its representation, or the representatives lack the integrity to adequately police through checks and balances, something has to be done. Aqaugreen's response was: ""Perfectly stated. I'll say it again, the airlines will get out of this in short order. The claim is against ALPO and this is a good one against ALPO. Go for it guys!"..."Being borderline nuts is a fundamental qualification to be an ALPO kool-aide drinker. I bet he's even got a black "Air Line Pilots Association" badge-necklass and is PROUD to wear it!"

Aquagreen Posted on: Apr 29 2008, 12:53 PM "No argument here and I wouldn't have provided for that if I were the arbitrator. But then again, I would have started the ratio at the top of each seniority list and not just arbitrarily give 500 spots to the East. Oh well...such is the nature of arbitration; you win some and you lose some."

Posted on: Apr 29 2008, 10:31 AM"Every UAL 747 and 777 should be off limits to every East and West pilot because neither group had an expectation for flying a true widebody. In other words, the most junior UAL pilot on their list as this is being typed, I guess we'll call him the "UAL Dave O'Dell," should have priority bidding before any West or East pilot ever sees the cockpit of a 777 or a 747 - regardless of how many grey hairs are on their head. That was his expectation when he hired on to UAL and that should remain his expectation when this merger becomes a reality."

Now..Here comes the "Punch Line" Folks. Aquagreen73s Posted on: Oct 13 2005, 09:38 PM: "I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity." Even their seniority list has been based on longevity so for them to now say "date of hire" means they are asking for a seniority list which didn't even exist on their side. Clearly, that is senseless. And to reiterate, even if pilots did have the same merger language as the AFA, it would really be a merger based on longevity."

For ANY that possibly missed that last = "I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be." Umm...sure thing Aquagreen..then along comes Nic...and the previously "widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built" are now made the purest Gospel under St Nic, and readilly gobbled up as being "fair and equitable" out west. Folks?..You just can't make this sort of "stuff" up.

These days?....It's apparently all about "process" and what can be wrangled from some whimsical aribration, courtrooms or west group tantrums.
We've apparently progressed light years from: "Being borderline nuts is a fundamental qualification to be an ALPO kool-aide drinker." and that "I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity." It seems that we now have a newly born Alpa/Nicolau produced epiphany and true"enlightenment", based soley upon "the process" to exclusively consider. Things have truly turned the corner when "I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be." have degenerated to "Because the result concurs with your subjective expectations and in your world, meeting the expectations of the East is all that matters."..even thought he east postion's identical to the poster's earlier stated notions of what properly constitutes seniority..."It's longevity...always has been, always will be"...UNLESS...it doesn't suit MEEEE!!!" of course. At the point that it no olneger serves that purpose..then "process" reigns supreme..and consistency and "INTEGRITY" rule the day of course 🙄


Call me a recalcitrant antique..but, i find that I'm far more interested in what's actually Right than I am in any 'processes".

 

[Pi brat]

[/quote



On a side note, a NWA pilot told me today that the arbitration decision is due out on Monday for the NWA-DAL pilots. Should be interesting to read.

On that we agree. Happy Holidays to you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The argument that ALPA had an obligation to uphold its SLI policy in its entirety is self-evident.

Absolutely, but believing that they did or not is strictly opinion until tested in court.

ALPA would be a lot better off if they had accepted their role as the third party.

ALPA purposely removed itself from being the third party - an action that has been tested in court and found appropriate...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

It seems that most west posters on here switch between the "fair and equitable" and "it's was the process that counts" argument depending on how it suits there point of view. See how I said most Jim? I don't want to lump everyone together.

Empirical evidence appears to show "equitable" is a necessity to "process", "righteous" protests of integrity and the NMB show that to be undeniable regardless of how much selective ignorance is feigned.

Even though the AFA collects far less in dues money somehow they were able to afford to take care of SLI in house. Leave it to ALPA to justify the outsourcing of SLI. How can a union oppose outsourcing jobs at the same time they seem satisfied to force it members to outsource SLI? :blink:

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

If it really is about the process, why do the west pilots have a problem with USAPA? The process is what gave it birth. And don't ya mean "couldn't care less"?. If you could care less, it's bothering you.

Excerpts from the usapa constitution:

Article II, section 6:
E. Members of the Association shall accept and agree to abide by the Constitution and Bylaws of USAPA as they are in force or as they may be amended, changed, or modified.

And there's this:

Article I, section 8:
D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.

E. To promote the safety of scheduled air transportation.


Do you really need to ask why the West has a problem with usapa? If we join we state that we support this nonsence. "Members shall accept and agree......." Huge BS flag sent up on that!!

As an aside, what do you suppose the authors were thinking when they placed seniority above safety in their constitution?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I've watched you tear into east posters, even when they agree with you, because of your desire to beat the DOH out of them. You are so blinded by your position that you, like some west posters, lump all east pilots together.

As you've watched East posters "tear into" me with personal attacks merely because my opinion on the award conflicts with theirs. Since you don't condemn that, should I assume that you condone it?

Most East posters can be lumped together because of their fervor for a DOH-based solution, not because of any blindness on my part. The problem with being an exception to the group is a tendency to take everything said about the group personally even when it doesn't apply to you.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

See how I said most Jim? I don't want to lump everyone together.

Yet in the post prior to that you said

If it really is about the process, why do the west pilots have a problem with USAPA?

Do you have personal knowledge that all West pilots have a problem with USAPA? Or are you lumping them all together based on the majority position?

Everyone is guilty of lumping one or the other of the groups together, if for no other reason than it's easier to say "East pilots" or "West pilots" instead of "East pilots except for poster A, poster B, poster C, and poster D" or "West pilots except poster E, poster F, poster G, and poster H." I certainly am guilty of using both "East pilots" and "West pilots" when not everyone in either group necessarily feels the same way about the issue at hand. Read a page of posts and you'll see that everyone does it, including you.

As I see it you've got two choices - accept that not everything said about East pilots as a group is necessarily directed at you personally or watch what you say in your posts very carefully. As I've shown, I'm not the only one that lumps the members of either group together.

Jim

 

[FL430]

You're right - it should have been DFR instead of DFW.

BTW, it's "haven't" not "havent", "Nicolau" not "Nicolai", "one-sided" not "one sided", "doesn't" not "doesnt", "benefited" not "benefitted", and "I" not "i". You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing rocks...

Jim

JIM
I text from a phone hence the intentional lack of punctiation insertions. You, however use a computer terminal and spend countless hours here. Your foray on the United board about the PBGC issues however is from a lack of cranial engagement. Try to keep that in perspective.

 

[nostradamus]

Air Line Pilots (ALPA) Financial Disbursements for 2006

 

[BoeingBoy]

JIM
I text from a phone hence the intentional lack of punctiation insertions.

So it's just the capitals and spelling you have trouble with...got it. Here's a deal...you ignore my mistakes and I'll ignore yours.

Here's a question, though. How come you omit the part where I discovered my mistake and apologized for it yet you use my mistakes as ammunition against me?

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

When you follow the money, you will find the honey.

 

[nostradamus]

Some posters are the largest fish in a small pond. Sad. Most posters have a motivation when they post here. Desperation is the story of those that have none.