US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I also take exception to your characterization of USAPA as a cancer. I much prefer the analogy to Kudzu, that ubiquitous and tenacious vine which ultimately prevails over all it comes in contact with🙂

P'84 -

Fine. Kudzu it is then. Funny thing: that stuff doesn't grow here in the desert.

Even if it did, the judge has a BIG weed whacker.......

Time for some Round Up.......and a usapa kudzu bonfire.

 

[Pi brat]

Does this help to clear up your state of bewilderment?

No

 

[EastUS]

P'84 -

Fine. Kudzu it is then. Funny thing: that stuff doesn't grow here in the desert.

What does actually grow in any desert that has value? The only things I've ever seen come from the world's most notable deserts are suicidally insane cults bent upon world domination through the manufacturing of chaos.

 

[Pi brat]

So just to be sure - is it that you don't have a preference which combined list ends up as "the list" or that you'll accept whichever combined list ends up being "the list" but would prefer (believe more fair, whatever) a DOH-based list? Frankly, I'm no longer amused at being told I'm wrong no matter which of those positions I attribute to you.

Jim

Jim,
Aw, I'm sorry you're not amused. Perhaps you should try some other internet based activities if that is what you are looking for.

DOH/LOS is better for me in this merger, so I have to fight human nature to try and see what is really fair. If I try to remove myself from the situation, I would probably say that relative position, of the WHOLE list, would have been more fair. Even with relative position I believe there needs to be fences to protect each sides flying until the group gradually gets mixed. I believe the argument that furloughed pilots didn't deserve anything was incorrect, because no other pilot on earth could take a US Air pilot position before them since we have life time recall rights. I think LOS is more fair than DOH, but even with LOS the C&Rs have to be right, and that is harder when things are moving backward.

I don't believe there is any perfect answer, especially the whole usually ends up being less than the parts. The west says they deserve the bigger part because they "saved" the airline. The east says they deserve the bigger piece since they have put more time, and money into this airline, and it is the east system that is more valuable.

Bottom line is that I don't claim to have the answer. I will go to my grave believing that the NIC award is very unfair, to most east guys and senior west guys. When I see posts about how fair it is, how the west has a lock on integrity etc., I will comment on them. If the judge puts the Nic award in place, I will live with it.

Clear?

 

[EastUS]

There has been a tremendous change in the West and it's been a very good one. The West pilots have learned how to stand up for themselves but do it in accordance with the law. It took calm, focused teamwork and the best attorneys, but the West is really rolling. At this point there is no longer a need for ALPA, the company, or the East pilots to do what is right. The West just needs to get to trial, which will happen in two months.

"There has been a tremendous change in the West......"

Well..there's certainly been a tremendous change in some areas at least:

Aquagreen73s Posted on: Oct 13 2005, 09:38 PM: "I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity."

Now; all that's needed for the "East pilots to do what is right" is for them to also do a complete reversal on their beliefs in order to suit the west's, process triumphant, It's ALL about MEEE! philosophy. I must nowadays assume that you were entirely kidding when you posted: ""I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be." ???? 🙄

A very good thing indeed that it's all about doing "what is right" out west, and that "Integrity" and consistency rules the day for you and yours. If those truths weren't so emminently clear to all, one "might" inappropriately believe the entire west postion to be nothing more than one of flagrant opportunism and utter hypocrisy.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Jim,
Aw, I'm sorry you're not amused. Perhaps you should try some other internet based activities if that is what you are looking for.

DOH/LOS is better for me in this merger, so I have to fight human nature to try and see what is really fair. If I try to remove myself from the situation, I would probably say that relative position, of the WHOLE list, would have been more fair. Even with relative position I believe there needs to be fences to protect each sides flying until the group gradually gets mixed. I believe the argument that furloughed pilots didn't deserve anything was incorrect, because no other pilot on earth could take a US Air pilot position before them since we have life time recall rights. I think LOS is more fair than DOH, but even with LOS the C&Rs have to be right, and that is harder when things are moving backward.

I don't believe there is any perfect answer, especially the whole usually ends up being less than the parts. The west says they deserve the bigger part because they "saved" the airline. The east says they deserve the bigger piece since they have put more time, and money into this airline, and it is the east system that is more valuable.

Bottom line is that I don't claim to have the answer. I will go to my grave believing that the NIC award is very unfair, to most east guys and senior west guys. When I see posts about haw fair it is, how the west has a lock on integrity etc., I will comment on them. If the judge puts the Nic award in place, I will live with it.

Clear?

Well said.

I agree with most of what you've said, and with 100% of the last two paragraphs.

When the final judge rules, I will live with whatever that decision is. That still doesn't mean it's going to be fair, though, for either and/or both sides. The courts are as imperfect as any human institution.

There probably are compromises out there that might approach fairness. But when either/both sides won't budge, why bother proposing compromise?

 

[Pi brat]

Jim,


Bottom line is that I don't claim to have the answer. I will go to my grave believing that the NIC award is very unfair, to most east guys and senior west guys. When I see posts about how fair it is, how the west has a lock on integrity etc., I will comment on them. If the judge puts the Nic award in place, I will live with it.

Clear?

Jim,

One last thing. On many subjects I'm able to shades of gray. I don't think there is one fair and one unfair answer to these questions, but if someone said "It's up to you, which is more fair, DOH with C&Rs, or the Nic award?", I'd say DOH.

 

[fodase]

Jim,

One last thing. On many subjects I'm able to shades of gray. I don't think there is one fair and one unfair answer to these questions, but if someone said "It's up to you, which is more fair, DOH with C&Rs, or the Nic award?", I'd say DOH.

And you would be wrong, the fair way was to staple the east below all west pilots, but hey, you got lucky and got better than relative position with the Nic.

 

[EastUS]

And you would be wrong, the fair way was to staple the east below all west pilots, but hey, you got lucky and got better than relative position with the Nic.

Here we have the exemplified west version of "Fair and Equitable" for all the world to see....Words simply fail me here, so I'll just part with the standard west salute = "INTEGRITY MATTERS!" 🙄

 

[Phoenix]

And you would be wrong, the fair way was to staple the east below all west pilots, but hey, you got lucky and got better than relative position with the Nic.

That testifies to a lot of things. A safe cockpit with a merged list isn't one of them.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Clear?

As mud. Relative position on the whole list is more fair but very unfair if it's only used for most of the list. DOH isn't fair unless we're talking about the furloughees, then it's the only fair way. LOS is really more fair, but it and DOH are the same for the vast majority of both East and West. DOH isn't fair unless it's for furloughees who should have it's protection. No one should take away a furloughee's right to recall, but except for other furloughees who is there to take it away. Unless you believe that the East furloughees have a right to recall to the job/base of their choice, but that isn't guaranteed even without the merger of lists.

Basically what you seem to be saying is that there is no perfect way to do combine the lists, which is a statement that I agree with. No system will produce zero benefit or deficit for every pilot. Yet, in a later post you say "which is more fair, DOH with C&Rs, or the Nic award? I'd say DOH." Which puts you squarely back in the "The problem with Nic is that it isn't DOH" camp, albeit on the reasonable end of the range of sentiment. Yet that is what you objected to initially and here we are...

Jim

 

[fodase]

From usapawatch.com



We are anxiously waiting for the USAPA NAC Update from last weeks negotiations. Judging from Mr. Parkers statements at the CLT Crew News, a contract is not even on the radar scope. Lets recap a few things we learned from Mr. Parker:

The seniority integration is under litigation and he will comply with the Courts ruling.
Mid Atlantic is not a CEO level issue and was an easy decision for Flight Operations to correctly reduce the longevity of those pilots that received credit for time at Mid Atlantic. Regardless of operating certificate, pilots at Mid Atlantic could not bid mainline vacancies at US Airways. Giving longevity to Mid Atlantic pilots would be unfair to those that sought other opportunities during their furloughs.
Mr. Parker and his management team respect captains authority in regards to the jumpseat. Management has expressed their willingness to investigate denials, but ultimately the captain has the final say whether or not a pilot rides. (Here at the Eye we strongly discourage the use of the jumpseat as a political tool. East and west pilots should be professional enough to welcome each other on the jumpseat and refrain from union related discussions during flight.)
Mr. Parker and his management team make unemotional business decisions and then communicate their plan of action to the employees.
The east pilots have been offered 18% raises that will cost $122 million/year. USAPAs ask is in far excess of what the company can afford in this environment.
The Cactus call sign is no longer creating any problems with ATC and is not a safety issue. In answering a ridiculous assertion that a world class airline has a commuter call sign, Mr. Parker and Mr. Hogg correctly identified multiple world class airlines that safely use non livery specific call signs.

The most memorable moment in the whole episode was the self announced illegal job action by the former Mid Atlantic E170 pilot who now flies mainline 737s. In asking his question about longevity he indicated to Mr. Parker that he would burn more fuel to convey his anger and disappointment with the company. We would suggest to this pilot that he receives better (or some counsel) before speaking at the next company meeting.

We must wonder out loud if this is the type of behavior the self appointed USAPA leadership suggests when they ask us to Be Good Union Pilots?

Permalink: usapawatch.com/2008/12/06/nac-update-and-some-crew-news.aspx
__________________

 

[Pi brat]

As mud. Relative position on the whole list is more fair but very unfair if it's only used for most of the list. DOH isn't fair unless we're talking about the furloughees, then it's the only fair way. LOS is really more fair, but it and DOH are the same for the vast majority of both East and West. DOH isn't fair unless it's for furloughees who should have it's protection. No one should take away a furloughee's right to recall, but except for other furloughees who is there to take it away. Unless you believe that the East furloughees have a right to recall to the job/base of their choice, but that isn't guaranteed even without the merger of lists.

Basically what you seem to be saying is that there is no perfect way to do combine the lists, which is a statement that I agree with. No system will produce zero benefit or deficit for every pilot. Yet, in a later post you say "which is more fair, DOH with C&Rs, or the Nic award? I'd say DOH." Which puts you squarely back in the "The problem with Nic is that it isn't DOH" camp, albeit on the reasonable end of the range of sentiment. Yet that is what you objected to initially and here we are...

Jim

You know what Jim? This post confirms what I have thought about you for a long time, that you just like to argue and you can't stand for anyone to take exception with you. If that post is clear as mud, get the mud out of your eye.

This series started when you replied to a post I made to someone else. If you don't like my thoughts don't respond to my posts, okay?

 

[EastUS]

Mr. Parker and his management team respect captains authority in regards to the jumpseat. Management has expressed their willingness to investigate denials, but ultimately the captain has the final say whether or not a pilot rides. (Here at the Eye we strongly discourage the use of the jumpseat as a political tool. East and west pilots should be professional enough to welcome each other on the jumpseat and refrain from union related discussions during flight.)


We must wonder out loud if this is the type of behavior the self appointed USAPA leadership suggests when they ask us to Be Good Union Pilots?_________________

You're "right" on all counts of course. A truly "good union pilot" would properly believe that jumpseats should be used as instruments of petty, personal vendetta against "fellow pilots" and would, very naturally, be insistent that, say, even a thirty year plus "fellow pilot" be stapled under themselves for eternity, as well as under that of even the newest AWA hires. The "Light" of fraternal love and brotherhood shining from the west's beacon of virtue and integrity is truly blinding..not to mention the fullest behavioral and philosophical concerns for what's proper within any union....or would be proper even within the vilest possible dog kennel. Who could not find proper awe and reverance from such perfection of principles as is exhibited only within the west?

QUOTE (fodase @ Dec 6 2008, 06:06 PM)
And you would be wrong, the fair way was to staple the east below all west pilots, but hey, you got lucky and got better than relative position with the Nic."

You folks out there are light years past being just purely unbelievable.

 

[Pi brat]

And you would be wrong, the fair way was to staple the east below all west pilots, but hey, you got lucky and got better than relative position with the Nic.

I don't think I have ever heard an east pilot say that the west pilots should have been stapled. More west integrity.