US Pilot labor thread 12/2-12/8

[BoeingBoy]

Let me ask you Nos - why the apparently overwhelming need to attack instead of discuss? Is it the result of such poor self-esteem that you hope you'll feel better about yourself by attacking others? Is it the knowledge that your position is so weak that it can't withstand scrutiny so you attack to deflect that scrutiny? Is it the inability to have a rational discussion so all you have in your arsenal is the attack? Bullied as a child perhaps, so now getting even while hiding behind a keyboard? Some other flaw?

Jim

 

[pilotn79]

Jim
To us this Nicolai is so one sided ( a windfall to the west ) it is worth fighting to the death.

We'll hand you the Samurai sword. Oh, it is not Nicolai, pay attention, his name is is N-I-C-O-L-A-U.

 

[Phoenix]

Should anything be said when someone breaks wind and doesn't even know it? :unsure:

Things suddenly make perfect sense now. 🙁

 

[Pi brat]

Yet in the post prior to that you said



Do you have personal knowledge that all West pilots have a problem with USAPA? Or are you lumping them all together based on the majority position?

Everyone is guilty of lumping one or the other of the groups together, if for no other reason than it's easier to say "East pilots" or "West pilots" instead of "East pilots except for poster A, poster B, poster C, and poster D" or "West pilots except poster E, poster F, poster G, and poster H." I certainly am guilty of using both "East pilots" and "West pilots" when not everyone in either group necessarily feels the same way about the issue at hand. Read a page of posts and you'll see that everyone does it, including you.

As I see it you've got two choices - accept that not everything said about East pilots as a group is necessarily directed at you personally or watch what you say in your posts very carefully. As I've shown, I'm not the only one that lumps the members of either group together.

Jim

Jim,

Touche'. The problem I have with you is that not more than 2 weeks ago I explained my opinion about DOH, but you continue to jump on everything I say. As I said before, even if I think the Nic award was absurd, it doesn't mean I think DOH is the only method.

I know you have a lot of people posting to you, maybe it's hard to keep up.

I've never thought I had to take up for you, you seem to handle that just fine.

 

[Pi brat]

Excerpts from the usapa constitution:

Article II, section 6:
E. Members of the Association shall accept and agree to abide by the Constitution and Bylaws of USAPA as they are in force or as they may be amended, changed, or modified.

And there's this:

Article I, section 8:
D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.

E. To promote the safety of scheduled air transportation.


Do you really need to ask why the West has a problem with usapa? If we join we state that we support this nonsence. "Members shall accept and agree......." Huge BS flag sent up on that!!

As an aside, what do you suppose the authors were thinking when they placed seniority above safety in their constitution?

As I cleared up with Aqua, I meant their election. When ALPA was the elected CBA, you were just fine with their rules, because they suited you, in this case. I beleive many west pilot were unhappy with ALPA before and tried to remove them. Wouldn't integrity mean that you accept the legally elected union, then you fight to change they things you think are not fair or just? Some west pilots version of integrity confounds me.

 

[pilotn79]

I beleive many west pilot were unhappy with ALPA before and tried to remove them.

I will agree with you on being unhappy with ALPA. Prater's paralysis and total lack of leadership contributed to the stalemate.

 

[Phoenix]

I will agree with you on being unhappy with ALPA. Prater's paralysis and total lack of leadership contributed to the stalemate.

I think he was referring to the dissatisfaction with ALPA that resulted in the attempt to remove ALPA, rather than the dissatisfaction with Prater that would have sought to replace Prater with another ALPA leader who would usher along the ALPA process embodied in Nic.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I will agree with you on being unhappy with ALPA. Prater's paralysis and total lack of leadership contributed to the stalemate.

The West participated in the ALPA process in good faith and expected that all parties would participate in good faith as well. Obviously the East participated but then decided to repuditate the arbitration when they didn't like the result. So they turned to the so-called neutral of Herndon VA and that's when the trouble for the West really began. Shame on the West for believing ALPA would do the right thing. The company has been more than eager to capitalize on this civil war and they are benfitting tremendously - to the tune of $100 million plus in pay alone and the ability to furlough out of order. I guess the company picked up on the unmistakable inference coming from Prater's office that the skinny little runt in the West was just going to get wedgied and then we'd all get on with it. Hasn't happened. The only venue which has given the West a fair shake has been in the courts (which includes Nicolau). One federal arbitrator, a federal judge in NC and now a federal judge in AZ are giving the West an opportunity to be heard, and that's all they're asking for. And, it's netting some pretty consistent and fair results as well. No more games of political expediency ala the company and ALPA. Looking back it is now clear that ALPA was a huge problem for the West, sort of like the crack addicted mother who kept sending her daughter over to the neighbor pedofile's house to be babysat. ALPA has never had any concern over what is right, but rather what is good for the officers at ALPA national. They'd sell their own grandmother if it netted them a nickel.

There has been a tremendous change in the West and it's been a very good one. The West pilots have learned how to stand up for themselves but do it in accordance with the law. It took calm, focused teamwork and the best attorneys, but the West is really rolling. At this point there is no longer a need for ALPA, the company, or the East pilots to do what is right. The West just needs to get to trial, which will happen in two months.

 

[Phoenix]

The West participated in the ALPA process in good faith and expected that all parties would participate in good faith as well.

Both the East and the West thought ALPA would do the right thing. Thats why they participated. ALPA's outsourcing and sheepish inaction left a void of leadership that cried out to be filled. Feel free to try to fill it.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Both the East and the West thought ALPA would do the right thing. Thats why they participated. ALPA's outsourcing and sheepish inaction left a void of leadership that cried out to be filled. Feel free to try to fill it.

I suppose this is the closest any of us have come to a dialog in a long time. Here goes. The East really effed up by elevating Bradford and his hand picked sandlot gang to where they are now. Ironically, though, it's looking like it's the East that will pay the biggest price for what USAPA has done. We'll see. You guys over there need to stop listening to those idiots from PHL. That's the cancer that is most responsible for all of this mess, including all of your suffering before American Western even entered the picture. For the love of Mary, you guys really need to get ahold of the facist-like henchmen who somehow are able to drown out reason over there and you sure as hell need to stop acting on their advice. They'll only take you over another cliff and that's exactly what USAPA has accomplished for you, but at a warp speed that is stunning. Any objective reading of the court filings, the transcript from the Oct. 29th hearing, and Judge Wake's Order would tell you that the East has been had by the gang of charlatans from PHL once again.

One note...when I speak of the idiots from PHL, I'm talking about the mindset which emanates from that gang which happens to be the exact mindset adopted by the usapa founders. There are a sizable number of pilots throughout the East system which has bought that toxic recipe for disaster coming from PHL, and usapa is yet another example of following their false promises right off yet another cliff.

 

[Phoenix]

I suppose this is the closest any of us have come to a dialog in a long time. Here goes. The East really effed up by elevating Bradford and his hand picked sandlot gang to where they are now. Ironically, though, it's looking like it's the East that will pay the biggest price for what USAPA has done. We'll see. You guys over there need to stop listening to those idiots from PHL. That's the cancer that is most responsible for all of this mess, including all of your suffering before American Western even entered the picture. For the love of Mary, you guys really need to get ahold of the facist-like henchmen who somehow are able to drown out reason over there and you sure as hell need to stop acting on their advice. They'll only take you over another cliff and that's exactly what USAPA has accomplished for you, but at a warp speed that is stunning. Any objective reading of the court filings, the transcript from the Oct. 29th hearing, and Judge Wake's Order would tell you that the East has been had by the gang of charlatans from PHL once again.

If you think there is a leadership void, and are trying to fill it, so far you haven't won my vote. But feel free to keep trying. At this point your whole platform amounts to whining and FUD. Hint: ALPA tried that already.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

As I cleared up with Aqua, I meant their election. When ALPA was the elected CBA, you were just fine with their rules, because they suited you, in this case. I beleive many west pilot were unhappy with ALPA before and tried to remove them. Wouldn't integrity mean that you accept the legally elected union, then you fight to change they things you think are not fair or just? Some west pilots version of integrity confounds me.

You are correct about the unhappiness with ALPA here in the West. But we were already members prior to the removal attempt. Our integrity remained intact throughout that episode.

The lack of integrity is on behalf of the usapa lemmings who placed item "D" in the constitution. Sure, the association is legal, but many of its potential members (nearly all Westyz and some Eastyz alike) truly believe it's constitution and it's conduct to be morally bankrupt. And soon, a federal judge may come to the same conclusion.

Therefore to sign on to the bankrupt mutiny that is usapa, would mean a loss of integrity - simply by association. Sorry - no can do.

Does this help to clear up your state of bewilderment?

 

[Phoenix]

.. the usapa lemmings ...

It is humorous to view a contempt that is so strong it inhibits logic.

Lemmings are easy to lead. Let Aquagreen know that in this case it is easy to fill the leadership void. Launch the campaign already. Gettyup.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

Touche'. The problem I have with you is that not more than 2 weeks ago I explained my opinion about DOH, but you continue to jump on everything I say. As I said before, even if I think the Nic award was absurd, it doesn't mean I think DOH is the only method.

After you jumped on my for my remark that the East position on the Nic boiled down to "It's not DOH" as being a mis-statement of your position. So I quoted your posts where you expressed a preference for DOH and was jumped on again. Even in your post partially quoted above, you speak of the Nic list as "absurd" while DOH is merely not "the only method."

So just to be sure - is it that you don't have a preference which combined list ends up as "the list" or that you'll accept whichever combined list ends up being "the list" but would prefer (believe more fair, whatever) a DOH-based list? Frankly, I'm no longer amused at being told I'm wrong no matter which of those positions I attribute to you.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

I suppose this is the closest any of us have come to a dialog in a long time. Here goes. The East really effed up by elevating Bradford and his hand picked sandlot gang to where they are now. Ironically, though, it's looking like it's the East that will pay the biggest price for what USAPA has done. We'll see. You guys over there need to stop listening to those idiots from PHL. That's the cancer that is most responsible for all of this mess, including all of your suffering before American Western even entered the picture. For the love of Mary, you guys really need to get ahold of the facist-like henchmen who somehow are able to drown out reason over there and you sure as hell need to stop acting on their advice. They'll only take you over another cliff and that's exactly what USAPA has accomplished for you, but at a warp speed that is stunning. Any objective reading of the court filings, the transcript from the Oct. 29th hearing, and Judge Wake's Order would tell you that the East has been had by the gang of charlatans from PHL once again.

One note...when I speak of the idiots from PHL, I'm talking about the mindset which emanates from that gang which happens to be the exact mindset adopted by the usapa founders. There are a sizable number of pilots throughout the East system which has bought that toxic recipe for disaster coming from PHL, and usapa is yet another example of following their false promises right off yet another cliff.

aquagreen

Your historical posts stand in stark contrast to what you are saying these days. I wonder what changed your mind, could it be the sudden windfall you received from Nicolau? That makes you a rank opportunist and partisan, rather than the objective, rational observer who represents himself as the spokesperson for integrity.

At least I admit my partisanship on this issue.

Let me put it another way. Our side is fighting for the very thing you once held up as an enduring and guiding principle. Namely, that longevity should be the overriding and preeminent consideration when merging or constructing seniority lists.

If USAPA was to seek some sort of compromise tommorrow, I'd wager that AOL would refuse the overture. The west thinks it smells blood in the water now. There is no turning back.

I also take exception to your characterization of USAPA as a cancer. I much prefer the analogy to Kudzu, that ubiquitous and tenacious vine which ultimately prevails over all it comes in contact with🙂