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US pilot labor thread 6/14-6/20

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Hmmmm......

As a westy, I'd say there is quite a dilemma with my two choices here:
a. Pay no dues. Have no say in union. Union strapped for operating funds, likely will be bankrupt within year.
b. Pay dues and assessments. Still have no say in union. Union gets smarmy and fat, hangs around abusing westys for rest of my career. (OK, fusapa is already totally smarmy).

Help me out here, checktwelve, which choice would YOU make?


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Check your math Sparky. USAPA is flush with cash just on the 3000 east pilots. We have little overhead. We don't waste dues money on luxury hotels or extravagant flight pay loss. Figure it out and then tell me how we are going to be bankrupt within a year. That's kind of like when you said there weren't enough cards. Or when there were enough cards how you said not enough would vote for USAPA.

Choose to be part of the union friend. It is in your best interest whether you agree with Nic or don't. There are a hell of a lot more issues out there than Nic and to not be party to what your union decides because you don't accept the election is just plain foolish.

Your choice though. Just don't think for a minute that USAPA is going to be hurting for cash. For round conservative numbers I don't think that upwards of 400 grand a month (without one nickel from the West) is going to cause financial crisis at USAPA. In fact, you can look forward to a dues decrease within 8 to 12 months.
 
Check your math Sparky. USAPA is flush with cash just on the 3000 east pilots. We have little overhead. We don't waste dues money on luxury hotels or extravagant flight pay loss. Figure it out and then tell me how we are going to be bankrupt within a year. That's kind of like when you said there weren't enough cards. Or when there were enough cards how you said not enough would vote for USAPA.

Choose to be part of the union friend. It is in your best interest whether you agree with Nic or don't. There are a hell of a lot more issues out there than Nic and to not be party to what your union decides because you don't accept the election is just plain foolish.

Your choice though. Just don't think for a minute that USAPA is going to be hurting for cash. For round conservative numbers I don't think that upwards of 400 grand a month (without one nickel from the West) is going to cause financial crisis at USAPA. In fact, you can look forward to a dues decrease within 8 to 12 months.

I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots, and will defend of the Nicolau Award.

Seems fair that since you won't accept the Nic, I shouldn't have to accept the tyranny of the east. We'll just have to let the courts settle this.

Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots. Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences) Until then, you're just spittin' into the wind with the westyz.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC
 
I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots, and will defend of the Nicolau Award. We'll just have to let the courts settle this. Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots.

Just because you're not happy with a democratically elected bargaining agent under the auspices of the NMB does not provide you with the right to avoid paying dues. But don't let our suggestions to participate stop you, please.

FWIW, it is not going to cost USAPA (read the membership) anything. You will simply receive notification from your employer to pay up or hit the street. Then you'll just be another contributor that has no reason to be here other than to stir the pot. You can even continue to sign your posts with "NLC." it will just be short for NO landing Captain. :up:

Keep us posted, NLC!
 
I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots, and will defend of the Nicolau Award.

Seems fair that since you won't accept the Nic, I shouldn't have to accept the tyranny of the east. We'll just have to let the courts settle this.

Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots. Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences) Until then, you're just spittin' into the wind with the westyz.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC
Seems like a really stupid way to end a career...utter defiance of the legally empowered CBA...I just don't understand...I would think that the cumulative evidence of this "alternate interest" you have would be embarrasing enough, but to follow it to it's foregone and terminal conclusion is seriously flawed thinking...but, every story has an ending...even this one.

You've no doubt heard Kirby's response in the crew news about who the company will deal with, right?

This is crazy. I know that several on the West have petitioned the company for "protection" going forward (from whom or what is a mystery...) since you are claiming to be "unrepresented"....I thought the answer Kirby gave was clear, concise, and legally congruent with the responsibilities of the company going forward...

Apparently, you continue to disagree...which means now you have juxtaposed yourself to the East, to your legal bargaining agent, and to the company iteslf.

You're gonna run out of money and time on this one, Perry Mason.
 
I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots

Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots. Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences)


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC
I'd like to explore a few thoughts, sir. Do you claim that the behavior documented in the lawsuit fairly represents the interests of the West pilots?

More importantly, upon a re-read of your post, I'd like you to expound on your "no fences" comment. So, your suggesting that a fair result would have no fences on geography or equipment?....is this what you are asserting?

Maybe you'd like to pet the big airplane, no?
Maybe just rub it's undercarriage a little, no?
Daddy likes the big plane, no?

Hmmm...lickin' your chops a little early, wouldn't ya say?.....

(pregnant pause noted...)
 
...I just don't understand...
Of course you don't but I'll try to simplify everything for you.

For just a moment let's say the Nicolau Award doesn't exist and we don't have a combined seniority list. What's a fair way to combine our seperate pilot groups?

a] negotiate as equals and arbitrate if no solution is obtained or
b] just have a vote and the bigger group wins ("tyranny of the majority")

The West says "a" and the East says "b". Knowing that, why in the world are you suprised we're refusing to take part in USAPA?

USAPA has pledged to negotiate a combined list that advantages the East. Saying you'll "protect" the West is not acceptable since only we can decide whether we're truly being protected.

Understand now?
 
Of course you don't but I'll try to simplify everything for you.

For just a moment let's say the Nicolau Award doesn't exist and we don't have a combined seniority list. What's a fair way to combine our seperate pilot groups?

a] negotiate as equals and arbitrate if no solution is obtained or
b] just have a vote and the bigger group wins ("tyranny of the majority")

The West says "a" and the East says "b". Knowing that, why in the world are you suprised we're refusing to take part in USAPA?

USAPA has pledged to negotiate a combined list that advantages the East. Saying you'll "protect" the West is not acceptable since only we can decide whether we're truly being protected.

Understand now?


You may want to ask the AWAPA folks how many west pilots would be furlouhged if the last AAA proposal was accepted during the ten day lock down at "the river".

You're not likely to get a straight answer.

You probably wouldn't believe that Save Dave and a few hundred above him would have been safe.

Making life changing decisions while angry is bad.... making them while angry and misinformed is even worse.
 
Of course you don't but I'll try to simplify everything for you.



The West says "a" and the East says "b". Knowing that, why in the world are you suprised we're refusing to take part in USAPA?

USAPA has pledged to negotiate a combined list that advantages the East. Saying you'll "protect" the West is not acceptable since only we can decide whether we're truly being protected.

Understand now?

OK...Don't participate, don't pay dues, and just take whatever comes then. Your choice. "Understand now?"

"b] just have a vote and the bigger group wins ("tyranny of the majority")" Works for me...It's an old fashioned concept called Democracy. What's your alternative notion? = Some bizzare Coronation ceremony elevating west pilots into a "Royal Family"?...With "special" priveleges and rights over all others? :lol: Perhaps it's just me..but..I certainly can't see any pedigree that would make such appropriate. Nicelandingcaptain: "Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences)" It seems to me that you seek such "special" treatment out west. Sigh...OK...I'm up for a good joke = On what possible basis, personal or professional, do you truly merit any such? I'm very much in earnest = What is you feel you have to offer that's so utterly impressive as to be worht years of any other's life's work?.....WHERE do any/all of you actually get your utterly astonishing "It's ALL about MEEE!!" sense of entitlement? Astounding aerial skills? = Not..I've not yet seen even one of you willing to pick up a wager on any level as to those. Dedicated years of work? = Doesn't apply to any/all St Nic Gift fantasies. Seriously..as but one man to others..WHY should I still have even the slightest respect for you folks?...The PHX roadshow?..Perhaps the mailing of "material"?...Adolescent phone games?...Hanging children's dolls in cockpits?...I'm all ears here...
 
FYI:

BPR Message to the Pilots
June 17, 2008


Fellow Pilots,

The leadership of USAPA feels it paramount to convey our thoughts to you regarding recent events here at US Airways, and the importance of your level of participation as USAPA enters into the ‘Contract Negotiation Mode’. The goals that USAPA was built upon, such as Pilots First and Fair and Equitable, are attainable through negotiations with the Company.

Electing USAPA as the US Airways pilots’ bargaining agent was step one in the process of fulfilling the goals of the union. We must now use our collective energy, the same energy that created our new union, to gain a contract that every US Airways pilot deserves. This is not union rhetoric or a wordy get tough letter; this is about your success.

Last week’s furlough announcement is not only a devastating blow to individual US Airways pilots, but it also plays a role in the ‘Contract Negotiating Mode’ which we will discuss later in this letter. First, let us assure our pilots that the leadership and committee structure are committed to exploring every avenue to mitigate the effects of the furlough. President Steve Bradford appointed Courtney Borman to the position of Furlough Administrator where he will coordinate the union’s efforts regarding furloughed pilots. President Bradford is also soliciting additional volunteers from the West to help in this effort. President Bradford also tasked the appropriate committees and our legal team to ensure that the Company remains within the limits of our Working Agreements and all other agreements including the Transition Agreement, and to ensure compliance with all minimum aircraft and utilization requirements.

The USAPA leadership regards the furlough announcement as more about perception than substance. The perception to which we refer is not just public or investor perception, but rather pilot perception and posturing for pilot consumption as we enter the ‘Contract Negotiating Mode’. The furlough announcement and the events leading up to the announcement are suspect at best. To the trained labor expert, the Company’s actions can easily be viewed as the strongest tools management can use to control pilot expectations while in the ‘Contract Negotiating Mode’, thereby attempting to affect your behavior and support for the union’s Negotiating Team.

Let’s take a moment to establish the integrity of our management, determine the respect it has for our pilots, and demonstrate the tactics that they employ in the ‘Contract Negotiating Mode’ by reviewing some of the events leading up to the furlough announcement.

On Wednesday, June 11, management held a Shareholder Meeting in which there was no mention of impending layoffs. Hours later on the same day, US Airways conducted a Labor Board Meeting involving labor leaders throughout the Company, again with no mention of layoffs. Less than 24 hours later on Thursday, management unveiled a new plan that involves the takedown of LAS hub flying, and an employee reduction totaling 1,700 employees including 300 pilots. Then, on the very same day, management published a new pilot bid that reflects the new plan and furlough announcement. This total disregard of the human part of “Human Resourcesâ€￾ is indicative of our management’s past practices and sets the stage for the ‘Contract Negotiation Mode’.

In addition, last Friday, June 13, a telephone meeting between US Airways President Scott Kirby and USAPA Vice President Captain Mike Cleary occurred, the tone of which was indicative as to where our management is concerning the pilots. Despite overtures from Captain Cleary expressing willingness to improve pilot morale thru compromise, President Kirby was staunchly unwilling to engage and, in addition, conveyed to Captain Cleary that management takes no responsibility for the current pilot morale and pilot state of affairs. When briefing the USAPA leadership, Captain Cleary described the conversation as “extremely disappointing.â€￾

With regard to the furlough announcement, if we stand by our ‘Operating Rule’ and “look at what management does, rather than what they say,â€￾ we clearly see a pre-emptive strike by management, designed to influence your behavior and control your expectations.

The ‘Operating Rule’ applies equally to our pilots; “It’s not what we say, it’s what we do!â€￾ There have been plenty of emails, web board postings and tough letters by all, but it is how we act as professional union pilots that will be important.

We suspect that management has more moves up their sleeves and will continue to use fuel prices, doom and gloom press articles and whatever perceived leverage du jour they can find in an attempt to control your expectations.

The facts, however, are that we have record breaking load factors along with a healthy industry yield. US Airways has already made the necessary cuts to remain competitive. Within the past week, Credit Swiss and Lehman Brothers have both produced favorable airline industry statements, and 2009 is already being billed the “Recovery Yearâ€￾ for the airline industry. Further, just three days ago Merrill Lynch upgraded US Airways to a “buy,â€￾ commenting that, “…the company has a solid cash position and no significant debt payments until 2014.â€￾ We have all lived this before.

Looking forward, we have proved that when collectively striving for a goal, we are successful. So let us take stock of where we are today:

Most of our pilots work for the lowest dollar amount in the industry, bar none, and all of us work for dollar amounts well below the industry average.
Most of us work under a contract that is nearly intolerable in quality-of-life terms (way too many to mention here); all of us work under a contract that does not come close to recognizing the contributions made by the pilots of this airline.
It is time for change, and we have demonstrated we have the energy to effect change.

So what can you do to guarantee successful contract negotiations? Stay informed; not only read your emails, the web site, and crew room bulletin boards, but also seek out both your Domicile and Pilot 4 Pilot Reps and get the even more important face-to-face communications. These pilots will soon be identified by their red lanyards.

While all of this is going on, it is more important than ever to stay focused while in our cockpits, and maintain our professional attitude and skills to insure our continued safe operation. The FOM provides guidance in this regard, and calls for Safety and our passengers’ comfort as the first two guiding principles. We urge you to reaffirm your commitment to the guiding principles and stay focused on the job at hand.

We now ask all of our pilots to be part of the solution as we enter into the ‘Contract Negotiation Mode’. We can do that by “BEING GOOD UNION PILOTS.â€￾

Respectfully,

BPR
 
FYI:

Family Awareness Needs Volunteers!

We, USAPA, all of us, began this with a hopeful focus on membership. That is, recognizing the value and importance of each of us individually, as well as in our group as a whole. We have before us the opportunity for exceptional success. Make no mistake, we will be successful. However, the degree of our success depends on you and me. We can no longer afford to allow our "union" to be a distant CBA entity managed by the few who are willing to participate and make choices that affect us all. Whether you agree or disagree, the paths we take from here are going to be our collective choice, and your individual voice in it. Every voice needs to be heard and that comes in membership; in membership comes union. Without it, you have no voice. That is not an exclusive, elitist attitude, but simple legal fact. Join and be heard.

"That's what herds do. They take care of each other." (A quote from a children's movie.) Replace 'herd' with family or union. I am blessed with a family that actively supports me through their encouragement, understanding, and love. The more I tell them of the goings-on at work, the more they understand and offer their support, and thus, there is generally less anxiety for us all. Families, as a whole, need support as well. They not only need to be well informed, but also know there are others having common experiences. As we once again face unprecedented challenges with our union, company, and industry we have that foundation of support in USAPA's Family Awareness. As a former, in the trenches, Group Leader I know first-hand how successful it can be. Of course, like basic membership, participation and success is up to us.

Family Awareness is an inclusive place for you even if you are not married, or do not have a 'traditional' family. It is not only yet another way to get accurate and up-to-date information, but also a way to get what you have to say to 'flow back' to 'The Leadership'. It is a time for us and our families to connect, or get reacquainted with others in your area, and sometimes just set it all behind us for a day and do a group thing such as going to a professional sports event. It's been along time since any effort was made here. A lot of us have been around the block a time or two. We've been through the fire, and our experience is valuable in the days to come. So I encourage you, participate, get involved, volunteer, go to a meeting near you. What you know and have to say just might make a difference and help someone through a tough time.

Today we need volunteers in all Family Awareness positions especially if you've had any previous experience. Even if you have never had any contact with Family Awareness, step up to the plate, bring your talent, make a commitment, and contact me at usapafamilyawareness@yahoo.com

Chairman, Family Awareness
 
I'd like to explore a few thoughts, sir. Do you claim that the behavior documented in the lawsuit fairly represents the interests of the West pilots?

More importantly, upon a re-read of your post, I'd like you to expound on your "no fences" comment. So, your suggesting that a fair result would have no fences on geography or equipment?....is this what you are asserting?

Maybe you'd like to pet the big airplane, no?
Maybe just rub it's undercarriage a little, no?
Daddy likes the big plane, no?

Hmmm...lickin' your chops a little early, wouldn't ya say?.....

(pregnant pause noted...)

Still skirting the issue like a little girl, are we? Please do tell why any westy should pay dues to an organization whose very genesis was to put the vast majority of our pilots at the bottom of a list, below folks who were furloughed - i.e. not working for the old, defunct US Airways - when this merge began? Why should we do that?

Screw all the "other good things" Stevie's band of merry men say they are doing. His outfit was founded based upon legal, but immoral principals. Anything they think they might accomplish will always be tarnished with the reprehensible stamp of immorality and tryanny.

I say again, answer my question with something that makes sense. Until you can do that, fusapa will receive no dues from the vast majority of westys. Period. And don't worry, Dougie isn't going to be putting 1800 people out of a job. No matter what you might say.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC
 
Still skirting the issue like a little girl, are we?

The "we" is rather telling...Just grow up. Choose whatever course of action you see fit...and do desist with all the whining. The recent actions of some west pilots serve only to embarrass the Profession entirely, and ill serve whatever your possible purposes may be. You've all the choice of participating/voting, and making your thoughts known....or ...not.

Addendum: I'll always offer proper, public, operational area/flight deck/etc..professional courtesy to you and yours...but..that's based entirely on my principles..and has nothing to do with the crap I've seen from the west...ummm..."professionals". Frankly?..Without said principles, and on a purely personal basis: I'd think it more appropriate to simply "drop-kick" most of you back into the "I bought my license" ..umm..err..supposedly "flight schools"/"high schools" that you came from. It's statistically, almost impossible that 1700 of you are all arrogant, self-worshipping, clueless fools. How about at least considering some actions that would enhance that hopefull notion?
 
Please do tell why any westy should pay dues to an organization whose very genesis was to put the vast majority of our pilots at the bottom of a list, below folks who were furloughed - i.e. not working for the old, defunct US Airways - when this merge began? Why should we do that?
To avoid being fired?

and, "immoral". What, exactly, does that mean? Does taking a windfall constitute "immoral"?
 
Screw all the "other good things" Stevie's band of merry men say they are doing. His outfit was founded based upon legal, but immoral principals. Anything they think they might accomplish will always be tarnished with the reprehensible stamp of immorality and tryanny.

INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC
Steve and his band of merry men (Is that your your slur of the day?) accomplished more in the least amount of time in the history of labor unions. Especially against one so entrenched as ALPA. Our "Outfit" as you so describe was also founded on basic union principles. Something you obviously can't grasp or just fail to understand. It was also a major fault of ALPA, hence their removal.

Tarnished? Immorality? Tyranny? Those descriptives of USAPA are really a joke, right? Because you just described ALPA and their C&BL's to a tee. Thanks.
 
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