US pilot labor thread 6/14-6/20

[nycbusdriver]

I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots, and will defend of the Nicolau Award.

Seems fair that since you won't accept the Nic, I shouldn't have to accept the tyranny of the east. We'll just have to let the courts settle this.

Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots. Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences) Until then, you're just spittin' into the wind with the westyz.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Hey, do what you want. We really don't care what the westies do. We out on the east are perfectly comfortable with the process as it begins to play out.

Don't pay dues. Don't pay fees. We really don't care if you do or not. Just a word of advice, though. Keep your resume updated if you plan on pursuing that course to its inevitable conclusion. In fact, someone has to be the first pilot fired for non-payment. Why not you and your "integrity?" In fact, I will be the first to congratulate you on standing your ground, even though you missed the fact that it's quicksand.

Good luck. Really.

But we don't care what you do. Really.

 

[elixir]

Still skirting the issue like a little girl, are we? Please do tell why any westy should pay dues to an organization whose very genesis was to put the vast majority of our pilots at the bottom of a list, below folks who were furloughed - i.e. not working for the old, defunct US Airways - when this merge began? Why should we do that?

Screw all the "other good things" Stevie's band of merry men say they are doing. His outfit was founded based upon legal, but immoral principals. Anything they think they might accomplish will always be tarnished with the reprehensible stamp of immorality and tryanny.

I say again, answer my question with something that makes sense. Until you can do that, fusapa will receive no dues from the vast majority of westys. Period. And don't worry, Dougie isn't going to be putting 1800 people out of a job. No matter what you might say.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Red stapler-man...
So we're clear, your issue seems to be more with DOH principles which EVERY other work group recognizes...as did ALPA at one time....whatever.

You're a smart guy (misguided maybe) I don't have to answer any such questions before you answer mine.
Stalemate....I encourage you and your gang to continue the dues and other boycots.

So, you're firm in your belief that leveraging your numbers against Dougie is going to work.

Lets see how long your troop lasts after the first batch are term'ed.

Good call, general.

 

[exB717Flyer]

You may want to ask the AWAPA folks how many west pilots would be furlouhged if the last AAA proposal was accepted during the ten day lock down at "the river".

Had the East had the integrity to accept the arbitration they agreed to zero Westies would be getting furloughed.

Making life changing decisions while angry is bad.... making them while angry and misinformed is even worse.

News for you bubba: when TWA became represented by the APA in 2002 I was one of the first (and few) to join. And this was back when AA was an Open Shop. I'm a pragmatist. The integration was over and it was time to do what was best for us. This merger is very different because I can't join USAPA as long as it's actively working against my entire pilot group's interest. When USAPA finally gives up on trying to bypass the arbitration maybe things will be different. Oops, I'm likely to be furloughed by then. Oh well.

 

[pilot]

I'm not paying much right now. In fact, its right around zero. TYVM....... I am contributing to causes, though, which I feel represent west pilots, and will defend of the Nicolau Award.

Seems fair that since you won't accept the Nic, I shouldn't have to accept the tyranny of the east. We'll just have to let the courts settle this.

Of course, the east could quite easily save a lot of time and money by getting a union installed that truely represents the interests of ALL USAirways pilots. Do that, and I'm in. (hint: it is not fusapa, nor fences) Until then, you're just spittin' into the wind with the westyz.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

I truly don't care what you folks do out there. I am rebutting your argument regarding the fiscal solvency of USAPA. At least try to make your arguments cogent and true rather than spouting off things you know nothing about.

Whether you pay or join USAPA truly is none of my concern. My concern is the profession as a whole. And utilizing an award like Nic destroys what this profession is based on. FYI it is called seniority. Or do you westyz bid your lines based on who is relatively good looking or who has relatively fewer kids so those pilots have to work on Christmas? ALPA gave up representing the profession long ago. For us "eastyz" Nic was the ALPA straw that broke the camels back. Whether you agree or not is immaterial. We legally and morally did what had to be done.

Just so you know: Our DB pension was negotiated under an "binding arbitrated" contract. Seems like that binding arbitration didn't hold water either now did it. And I didn't see ALPA national calling for a nationwide SOS when ours, UAL, NWA or any others disappeared.

Pay or don't pay. Join or don't join. Sooner or later Parker will have to do what he is legally bound to do to any pilot, east or west, if they refuse to follow the rules. What you or I say is irrelevant to this legality. What we do is germane. Suit yourself sparky.

We are running a union for the pilots. Not the organization. And that union's bedrock principle is based on a date of hire seniority list. Just like America West's, and everyone else's, based on union principles founded long before you or I could even spell airplane. Back when ALPA was a union and not a bunch of suits and lawyers looking out for individual pilot groups instead of the profession.

This arbitration and resultant decertification has opened a ton of pilots eyes. We were the first to leave based on ALPA's foolish merger policy. We won't be the last. On that you can count. NWA is not far behind.

pilot

 

[prechilill]

Had the East had the integrity to accept the arbitration they agreed to zero Westies would be getting furloughed.News for you bubba: when TWA became represented by the APA in 2002 I was one of the first (and few) to join. And this was back when AA was an Open Shop. I'm a pragmatist. The integration was over and it was time to do what was best for us. This merger is very different because I can't join USAPA as long as it's actively working against my entire pilot group's interest. When USAPA finally gives up on trying to bypass the arbitration maybe things will be different. Oops, I'm likely to be furloughed by then. Oh well.

East pilots like to fight with the world, and blame the world for their misfortunes. There is a reason the UAL MEC was so against a USAir merger and we on the west can understand why- and it is not from their halitosis. The east is a toxic histroy of bitter mergers and selective application of principles to suit individual needs rather than the bedrock principles of true unionism. That is why ALPA failed at their airline and why USAPA will fail also. They can't comprehend that the individuals make the union- not the other way around.
A lot of us are enjoying watching USAPA flounder. Two months into this and as expected, they have accomplished nothing except a lawsuit not even worth the paper it is written on. Of course, when you have substandard legal counsel composed of lawyers from bottom-tier law schools, what else can be expected?

 

[Hi-C-Camp]

East pilots like to fight with the world, and blame the world for their misfortunes. There is a reason the UAL MEC was so against a USAir merger and we on the west can understand why- and it is not from their halitosis. The east is a toxic histroy of bitter mergers and selective application of principles to suit individual needs rather than the bedrock principles of true unionism. That is why ALPA failed at their airline and why USAPA will fail also. They can't comprehend that the individuals make the union- not the other way around.
A lot of us are enjoying watching USAPA flounder. Two months into this and as expected, they have accomplished nothing except a lawsuit not even worth the paper it is written on. Of course, when you have substandard legal counsel composed of lawyers from bottom-tier law schools, what else can be expected?

Bitter, party of one, your table is ready for you to be served.

 

[checksix]

Still skirting the issue like a little girl, are we? Please do tell why any westy should pay dues to an organization whose very genesis was to put the vast majority of our pilots at the bottom of a list, below folks who were furloughed - i.e. not working for the old, defunct US Airways - when this merge began? Why should we do that?

Ok, let's see you act like a big boy, be a man of integrity, be good to your word. Don't pay dues to USAPA, don't ever pay dues to USAPA. You see, if enough of you pledge to do that we won't have to furlough anyone - wouldn't that be a great thing.

Thanks, NLC! We will not forget you..........

 

[prechilill]

Ok, let's see you act like a big boy, be a man of integrity, be good to your word. Don't pay dues to USAPA, don't ever pay dues to USAPA. You see, if enough of you pledge to do that we won't have to furlough anyone - wouldn't that be a great thing.

Thanks, NLC! We will not forget you..........

Are you the prototypical east pilot? Wishing others to be fired? Hmmm. Interesting group you guys are. I think some self-reflection is in order if you want to ever understand why your floundering careers have been punctuated with self-inflicted gun shot wounds throughout the years.
Peace.

 

[checksix]

Are you the prototypical east pilot? Wishing others to be fired? Hmmm.

You, who refuse to pay union dues, are termed a special name. You know it, perchilill, but we are not allowed to repeat it on this board. Your non-unionism buddies are going to be affecting our ability to negotiate a better contract; you're going to be negatively affecting our livelihood. This type of non-union player is not appreciated in a labor union and you will begin to see that more and more as this plays out.

There's a reason we terminate non-dues payers - they ain't good for the group and they are effectively, freeloaders, riding on the coat tails of the membership. So, no, I am not, nor would I EVER, wish for a fellow "brother or sister" to be fired, on the contrary, I have fought to keep many a man's job on this property. That is not the case here; you are mixing apples and oranges to incite discord.

So tell me, prechilill; are you going to be one of those who promises not to pay dues? Tell us, please, where you stand big boy?

 

[elixir]

Nobody wishes anyone was fired...you guys seem to be bent on finding out for yourself how this plan will wind up. It only has one conclusion...the company will be forced by law to begin termination proceedings...and you will have done it to yourselves. And you guys will cry that USAPA didn't protect you, or come to your aid, and USAPA will have the membership envelopes with rocks and #### in them to show the company and the court. And they'll have the transcripts of pilots vowing to never join or pay dues, and "betting" Parker won't do anything. And he will have to do what the law requires him to do. And you will have no DFR case against USAPA since you voluntarily chose to abstain from memberhip or dues.

Thats how this will end.

The only thing that would top it is if you all walked around with a big wooden cross over your shoulder through the terminals.

 

[prechilill]

So tell me, prechilill; are you going to be one of those who promises not to pay dues? Tell us, please, where you stand big boy?

If you want to call me "big boy" can I call you "old man" LOL.
No, I haven't paid dues and will not pay any to your toxic culture. Here is some advice, if you want to reconcile differences you have to negotiate a little, be considerate. Taking a vote and crowing about majority rule is not claiming any moral high ground. One day you may figure this out.

 

[nostradamus]

Two months into this and as expected, they have accomplished nothing except a lawsuit not even worth the paper it is written on. Of course, when you have substandard legal counsel composed of lawyers from bottom-tier law schools, what else can be expected?

You deny the childish actions of your pilot group. You refuse to pay dues.

They are furloughing from the bottom of your list and will start non dues paying terminations from the top of your list.

You should sue your own leaders for DFR, because they are leading you down the wrong path. Holding your breath until you turn blue, might of worked a few years ago when you were kids, but it does not work that way in the real world.


Click here for the lawsuit that you claim is not worth the paper it is written on.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

No, I haven't paid dues and will not pay any to your toxic culture. Here is some advice, if you want to reconcile differences you have to negotiate a little, be considerate. Taking a vote and crowing about majority rule is not claiming any moral high ground. One day you may figure this out.

Reconcile differences? Negotiate? May I ask with who? Seems to me we had to listen to you crow for quite a while. Add all the FUD during the campaign. And now you want........ Does it ever end with you? Luckily, with or without you, we are on the road to bring an end to all this. I think you just like the conflict as much as you think we do. Honey, we have figured it out. Like I said, with or without you.

Checksix: Preachy is a woman. Ex-ALPA type now enjoying line flying.

 

[trunion]

Are you the prototypical east pilot? Wishing others to be fired? Hmmm. Interesting group you guys are. I think some self-reflection is in order if you want to ever understand why your floundering careers have been punctuated with self-inflicted gun shot wounds throughout the years.
Peace.

Have you looked at the west senority list lately? Talk about floundering careers. 10 year Fo club for sure, and no relief in sight... Unless you take the east jobs... talk about immoral!

As one westie stated..."there would be no west furloughs if the east had kept the nic award".
How truly interesting your group's logic is.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Here is some advice, if you want to reconcile differences you have to negotiate a little, be considerate.

That's rich coming from a west pilot. "...if you want to reconcile differences you have to negotiate a little..."

Now, when Nic posted his "award," we had a lot of differences. And our MEC tried in vain to negotiate a little with you guys. Then ALPA national tried REALLY HARD to negotiate a little with you guys...several times, in fact. All to no avail. Everyone just kept hearing the "final and binding" mantra. No negotiation...not even "a little," as you say.

Well. what goes around comes around, as it is often said. And all those opportunities to negotiate "a little" that you westies refused is now back in spades.

"Final and binding?" That's what the NMB said on April 17th.

I'll see your "final and binding" with the NMB's "final and binding" and raise you one termination letter.