US pilot labor thread 6/28-7/4

[nostradamus]

OK!

Some on here keep calling the activity criminal. The law suit calls it criminal. But you are correct it is a civil case.

A few phone calls to an 800 number is not reason to ask the company to terminate someone. That is not the companies problem.

You are portraying the events of awappa members as a few phone calls to an 800 number. You need to be educated.

Click here for a slightly different opinion of things

 

[AAA73Pilot]

A few phone calls to an 800 number is not reason to ask the company to terminate someone. That is not the companies problem.

Just out of curiosity, How could you determine that almost 3,000 of the 14,000 calls to USAPA from just the named defendants would be considered "A few phone calls"? Your choice of words is interesting.

Your right about the company though, it's a civil matter between USAPA and those named / unnamed.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here's an idea for those who wish to "Save Dave" - offer the 100+ John Doe's in the lawsuit EVLOA, particularly the ones who's actions were more egregious (sp?), in lieu of prosecution or disciplinary action.

That would include jumpseat thugs - those who deny fellow pilots the jumpseat. Even ALPA admonished many times that the jumpseat was not to be used as a political tool or weapon.

Then subtract that number from the furlough list.

Unless, of course, Dave was one of them.

 

[hp_fa]

That would include jumpseat thugs - those who deny fellow pilots the jumpseat. Even ALPA admonished many times that the jumpseat was not to be used as a political tool or weapon.

Here's the problem. Whenever anything is discretionary then any action taken, or not, in connection with the discretionary action is not subject to enforcement. Does this mean I support the way that this seems to be used by some folks? No it doesn't. But the company could always change it's policy and mandate that the flight crew must carry any company pilot seeking to jumpseat if that seat is unoccupied. Of course that could also cause a pilot to be so upset at whom he may have to carry as a jumpseater that the pilot calls out sick or unavailable at the last minute.

Let's just briefly look at another discretionary matter that has potentially not been followed for wrong or (company ) political reasons, specifically the single engine taxi. The purpose of this was to save the company money. It could also be argued it was to save a finite resource in the form of a fossil fuel that otherwise was not being used as efficiently as it should. The AAA union members used the discretionary portion of that policy for political purposes to send the company a message, and in the meantime wasted natural resources because they were pissed at management.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first? Do you know something that we do not. Maybe you forgot a little thing in this country about being presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. Merely filing a frivolous and vindictive lawsuit proves nothing. There is no reason to fire those guys or anyone out of order. Can you point to a section in the contract that gives USAPA or the company discretion in how they terminate?

Gotta get rid if the infection before the wound can heal.

The judge didn't throw out the lawsuit last week. Guess your theory of "frivilous lawsuit" is pretty much done.

Most often people go after those who owe the most first. That would be the senior pilot first. However when the company does that they incur training costs to replace that captain.

The company can do it any way they choose. The only thing is, they MUST TERMINATE. There is no choice unless the individual pays up.

Section 29 was never envisioned to force the company to terminate a large number of pilots at once. It was for the rare individual for whatever reason decided to decent.

So what? It still applies.

So you east guys can have your little circle jerk agreeing with each other and believing how smart you think that you are. But nobody knows how this will turn out. I would guess that the company is still developing their response.

True enough. But I think the "circle jerk" is definitely west of the mississippi.

I could even imagine that after USAPA gleefully turns over the list to the company. Parker may very well tell USAPA that they should probably try and work something out with the west guys.

I hope he does. The only given is that it WILL INCLUDE the west guys paying their agency fees.

What you east guys don’t seem to understand. There are no “leadersâ€￾ over here. Each of us came to the same conclusion independently. It was a very easy choice. We all saw that USAPA was and is out to destroy our careers. Stapling 85% of the west below furloughed pilots is wrong. We did not need anyone to convince us of that. The only thing that AWAPPA has done is give us advice on our rights within union labor law.

Sure. There's no intimidation going on? I guess we'll see when the lawsuit is heard. We're all entitled to make our own decisions. You take stupid advice, you live with the outcome. Let us know how the new career goes, if you don't pay up, that is.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here's the problem. Whenever anything is discretionary then any action taken, or not, in connection with the discretionary action is not subject to enforcement. Does this mean I support the way that this seems to be used by some folks? No it doesn't. But the company could always change it's policy and mandate that the flight crew must

I don't wish to take away the captain's authority in any way, despite the actions of some in the west who wittingly or unwittingly are undermining that authority; because every time a denied jumpseat event occurs, management sees it as more and more of an issue which they need to deal with. Captain's authority implies that his/her authority is applied utilizing accepted protocal, in an evenhanded manner and not as a weapon to bash those whom he/she wishes to target and victimize. The jumpseat should be neutral territory - but it appears we need to re-educate some to that fact.

 

[luvn737s]

The jumpseat should be neutral territory - but it appears we need to re-educate some to that fact.

I think everyone has the opportunity to apply for an EVLOA, or are you implying something else?

If USAPA had sufficient evidence to go after anyone else, they wouldn't be lumped in with the John Does. Evidently they think that a jury will believe that if someone made a phone call, they probably did something else named in the suit. A stretch at best.

And for those pilots who think that their livelihood is being messed with just so that Nicolau gets squashed and a DOH list can be rammed down their throats, I doubt they see any neutral territory.

Why don't those who feel so strongly about the jumpseat and dues issue force Bradford to face his responsibility to the west and deal with the issues that are fundemental to this war? If he makes a long-term good faith effort and his efforts are soundly rejected, then he can say that he did everything he could. His actions will speak much louder than words (which have been mostly threats).

 

[luvthe9]

Luvn737 "USAPA -A cheap imitation of ALPA", Just curious were you one of the 48% that voted in the past to remove ALPO from AWA, or was that before you time?

 

[nycbusdriver]

And for those pilots who think that their livelihood is being messed with just so that Nicolau gets squashed and a DOH list can be rammed down their throats, I doubt they see any neutral territory.

Cram DOH? You mean DOH that has been the industry standard in all industries for decades, and was the standard in the airline industry until some self-serving ALPA types decided it was not in their best interest? You mean the DOH that the east and west F/A's were mergerd with? The DOH that the dispatchers were merged with? That DOH? That's somehow a cramdown? Maybe in the eyes of 1800 people on the entire planet, but I think there will be little sympathy beyond that group.

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn737 "USAPA -A cheap imitation of ALPA", Just curious were you one of the 48% that voted in the past to remove ALPO from AWA, or was that before you time?

Why do you ask? Are you familiar with the circumstances around that vote?

 

[luvn737s]

Maybe in the eyes of 1800 people on the entire planet, but I think there will be little sympathy beyond that group.

I don't think anyone is looking for sympathy (although everyone I have spoken to, 100%, see USAPA as an end-run around what couldn't be done through arbitration, and therefore illegitimate). Intergrity- yes, leadership - yes, but sympathy- no.

No USAPA supporter has come out and stated why they feel satisfied with Bradford's apparent belief that the west can be ignored and disenfranchised without consequence. USAPA, as a majority, is compelled to lead, even if they disagree with the west. And leadership is more than pounding your fist and villainizing a portion of the opposition. It's listening and responding to everyone's concerns.

 

[luvthe9]

Why do you ask? Are you familiar with the circumstances around that vote?

I'll take that as a yes.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

If burning your "lottery ticket" is disenfranchisement, then so be it. Consider yourself disenfranchised.

Your ALPA leadership REFUSED to discuss ways to merge the list. Now they don't have to.

 

[nostradamus]

No USAPA supporter has come out and stated why they feel satisfied with Bradford's apparent belief that the west can be ignored and disenfranchised without consequence.

I am completely satisfied. You refuse to join the union, you refuse to pay dues. Your awappa leaders sanctioned activity that was criminal. You are officially disenfranchised, now you will suffer the consequences of your actions or lack there of.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I don't think anyone is looking for sympathy (although everyone I have spoken to, 100%, see USAPA as an end-run around what couldn't be done through arbitration, and therefore illegitimate). Intergrity- yes, leadership - yes, but sympathy- no.

No USAPA supporter has come out and stated why they feel satisfied with Bradford's apparent belief that the west can be ignored and disenfranchised without consequence. USAPA, as a majority, is compelled to lead, even if they disagree with the west. And leadership is more than pounding your fist and villainizing a portion of the opposition. It's listening and responding to everyone's concerns.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of listening to that integrity tripe - from people who don't have any, don't understand it's meaning, or the meaning of a scab, or the meaning of seniority based on longevity.

Was integrity brought into play when those feces filled envelopes were mailed, or when the safety hotline was jammed with bogus calls, or every time a working stiff gets booted off the jumpseat because some cockpit nazi needs to vent?

And USAPA's so called "end run" was done in broad daylight, in plain sight, with everyone's knowledge, including the NMB, management, ALPA and the west. Bradford told you what he would do - and then he went out and did it. It was perfectly legal. More than anyone can say about AWAPPA's tactics.