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US pilot labor thread 6/28-7/4

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So it is your belief that there is no such thing as a fair duty to represent?
Kept in context, you're relying too much on that DFR as it pertains to negotiations. We have already learned that USAPA will not receive support for a strike from our non-members. As I have said over and over, the lack of unity will be our starting point. The question is, where do you want it to start?
Anything that is negotiated and voted in by a 50% + 1 vote margin is by definition immune to a DFR challenge?
I wish I could have challenged LOA93 also. Would that qualify as a DFR? No? Or is it supposedly because 56% voted for it. Just a little better than 50% + 1. How about a DFR for giving up the retirement? No? You see they applied equally to all. Like a new joint contract.
I guess that means that the union could negotiate a contract that gives very generous terms to the top 50% (+ one) of the seniority list and simultaneously cuts medical, pay and other benefits to the bottom 50% (- one) and after it passes it would be impervious to any legal challenge. This is self evident as this is what was negotiated and no court would ever deem otherwise.
Unless you are in the negotiating room, one will never know, will they? Remember that little tidbit on support? However, I think your example would have merit in this case. Benefits not applied equally would be a problem for any bargaining unit. However, if you subscribe to the class and craft definition, a bargaining unit could apply different everything for Cap. vs. F/O's. It could be that someone in the 50% range who could bounce back and forth would be very PO'ed. Wouldn't you think?
Incredible, and I wasted all that time learning about labor relations in college when I could have picked up your simple 50% +1 formula that nullifies all other statutes.

Thank you for educating us all on the incredible power of the popular vote.
Once again. You get what you negotiate. BTW. What I think you were trying to get across by using statutes as an example, is that so long as the joint contract applies equally to all in the class and craft, good or bad, then yes, the majority rules and you just wasted your time.
 
Wouldn't the highest paid be the most delinquent?

No, the one who has been delinquent the longest is most delinquent. At least that is how it would work in any other union. Perhaps USAPA is drafting a special amendment to their "constitution" to re-define this too.
 
No, the one who has been delinquent the longest is most delinquent. At least that is how it would work in any other union. Perhaps USAPA is drafting a special amendment to their "constitution" to re-define this too.
Good point. In fact excellent point! But then again I see your definition and mine seem to differ. No matter, we will see how the BPR decides to proceed. I still think your attempts to discredit USAPA over every issue you can dream up is most enlightening. Looking forward to the next imaginary issue.
 
The words eastus quote are indeed true, I expect every east pilot to be punished for their actions, to pay for the fact they have cost themselves and the west hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are already getting a financial hit with more to come. Every east pilot enjoys 10 less days vacation, 3 less days off per month, substandard disability, less daily guarantee, half dead head etc. And that makes me very happy🙂


Punished for doing what they were legally allowed to do? What Planet are you on. You sound very delusional to me and I think you are in need of professional help.

Did you happen to read that Delta and Northwest are signing their joint contract first and then working on the seniority issue... Does anybody have a clue why? :shock:
 
Punished for doing what they were legally allowed to do? What Planet are you on. You sound very delusional to me and I think you are in need of professional help.

I think the postings need no help whatsoever in clearly establishing a delusional state...as in = no joke here folks, actually delusional.

Leonidas: "I expect every east pilot to be punished for their actions," "I want the capatain seat..and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it"......"blah blah blah"/etc. Then..as also presented by this person months ago..we have the Great Alpa Goat ummm.."Film" to reflect on. The "stuffed" envelopes, phone games and lynched dolls shouldn't serve to surprise anymore.

Don't know 'bout you Zeke...but ahm gittin' ta' thinkin' 'dat some of theeze boys jess' ain't "right"....The saddest part being that so many out there foolishly follow such insanity....Ah well.
 
Oh hey Oldie,

Is it Oldie the USAir pilot or the Oldie that is not a USAir pilot?

I know that many others post under your handle because that is the only way to explain away the inconsistencies in your stories.

So which oldie is it?
Presently, I am. Let's see just whom is the LCC pilot AFTER August.

I don't have to explain my situation or past employment situation to you or anyone else, so you can just get over it.

If you're here after August, we'll know you caved, just like we expect you will.
 
If I were doin' the pickin', and I'm not, I'd get rid of the trouble makers FIRST. That would be the ones that are MISLEADING their compatriots into thinking that it's okay to "buck the system". I'd start with the guys named in the lawsuit.

I just hope somebody gets a Utube video of the lawsuit guys getting met on the jetway by the Chief Pilot with a replacement when he gets his "final notice". Bet they cave so fast it makes you head spin!

Why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first? Do you know something that we do not. Maybe you forgot a little thing in this country about being presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. Merely filing a frivolous and vindictive lawsuit proves nothing. There is no reason to fire those guys or anyone out of order. Can you point to a section in the contract that gives USAPA or the company discretion in how they terminate?

Most often people go after those who owe the most first. That would be the senior pilot first. However when the company does that they incur training costs to replace that captain.

Section 29 was never envisioned to force the company to terminate a large number of pilots at once. It was for the rare individual for whatever reason decided to decent.

So you east guys can have your little circle jerk agreeing with each other and believing how smart you think that you are. But nobody knows how this will turn out. I would guess that the company is still developing their response.

I could even imagine that after USAPA gleefully turns over the list to the company. Parker may very well tell USAPA that they should probably try and work something out with the west guys.

What you east guys don’t seem to understand. There are no “leadersâ€￾ over here. Each of us came to the same conclusion independently. It was a very easy choice. We all saw that USAPA was and is out to destroy our careers. Stapling 85% of the west below furloughed pilots is wrong. We did not need anyone to convince us of that. The only thing that AWAPPA has done is give us advice on our rights within union labor law.
 
Why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first? Do you know something that we do not. Maybe you forgot a little thing in this country about being presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. Merely filing a frivolous and vindictive lawsuit proves nothing. There is no reason to fire those guys or anyone out of order. Can you point to a section in the contract that gives USAPA or the company discretion in how they terminate?

Innocent until proven guilty is applicable in a criminal context when the government is trying to imprison or otherwise penalize someone. It does not apply in a civil context where the burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
TV's Andy Levy here with this week's half-time report. (I love RED EYE, too bad it comes on so late, and the babes from FOX News that are on the panel! There ought to be a law!)

East, you're dead-on, right. AWAPPA is nothing more than an operational irritant. The company doesn't listen to them. They have no power. All they can do is get guys in trouble.

Leo the lion, no East pilot is going to take a West CA or FO position. That rumor is long worn out. When are you going to get over that BS threat? The bad old USAPA is all the sustains your awappo/leo deal. Our Beepers are working on some pretty tall fences. Give a listen when they get it worked out. It won't be the NIC, but you might just be surprised.

Luvn737s, it's up to the company who they fire. We're just going to give them the list.

Oldie, your'e right. We just provide the list. It's going to be the company's call who gets met at the jetway. How many and in what order. Remember back in 2002 when you-know-who was met at the jetway by the CLT CP, along with a replacement pilot and two security guys to take his ID and escort him off the property? "Truth or Dare?" He folded like a cheap suit, signing the promisory note and signing "agency shop" check-off. He didn't rejoin ALPO.

They'll sign. Not a lot of jobs out there right now. I don't think USAPA is going to offer any hardship deals on future dues. We don't have to. Maybe on the back dues.

TaZZ, you're right. It is a violation of the TA. But you guys have the data about how badly you could be violated. So are you going to keep the info from us or are you going to cooperate and help us keep the furloughs to a minimum? It's your choice to be part of the solution or just keep causing the problem.

Ableone, Exorcising USAPA may be step one for you, but you won't get your chance for another 22 months. That's just the way it is. You want to go that long without having any input at all into what's going on? Until then all your wishful thinking isn't going to get the deed done. And whether we have our act together or not, whatever that act is, it's being financed by 2800 members in good standing paying in $450K per month. I'd say we've got enough to cover any AWAPPA/West contingency, even a DFR.

PA18, I'm still sore from doing those 90-hour ben-dover flexes. A West former "friend" of mine clued me into the key to stop or reduce most of the furloughs. It's in their contract to voluntarily reduce their monthly flying to 40 hours, staffing permitting. We need to push that. But the West has the knowledge to put it together. They know the intent at the table. We don't. They know their contract. All it would take to avoid furloughs (except for maybe last winter's new-hires) is to find out how many would do that 40 hour thing and look into reducing line average a little. That would take a poll, of DUES-PAYING members.

I'm not a saint, but I'd take 40 hours every month I could. As temporary as this job is, I could use the time to work 3/4 time at my real job (the farm). No Bucks in Bucks County if you're not driving the tractor.

West guys, you can sit on the sidelines and moan and groan on this web board or you can help to save jobs. your contract is the key. Use it. Help out all LCC pilots. We will listen if you can get anyone with enough stones to break away from your blessed AWAPPO.

The Snoop
 
Innocent until proven guilty is applicable in a criminal context when the government is trying to imprison or otherwise penalize someone. It does not apply in a civil context where the burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt.


OK!

Some on here keep calling the activity criminal. The law suit calls it criminal. But you are correct it is a civil case.

There has not been a preponderance of evidence yet, no trial only a single initial hearing. So my question is still valid. Why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first?

I don’t believe a single post on a private web board comes anywhere near a preponderance of evidence.

A few phone calls to an 800 number is not reason to ask the company to terminate someone. That is not the companies problem.

So why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first?
 
I was just correcting the one issue. I happen to agree with most of the rest of what you said, but the one comment needed correction. Ask the East folks, I have done the same to them a number of times and I do try and be consistent. 🙂
 
So why would the “Law Suit Guysâ€￾ get fired first?

Contrary-wise = Why wouldn't/shouldn't any of them have the dubious honor of going first? I know of nothing that particularly qualifies them as any "Protected Species"...."Endangered"?...possibly..but hardly "Protected". In any case; time will tell how things will actually turn out.

Personally?...I'd rather see all concerned therein simply "grow up" a bit, and no one be tossed out.
 
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