US pilot labor thread 6/28-7/4

[elixir]

My bad, Yacht-guy. I mixed you up with ableone after I stole his single malt Scotch and his seniority number.

no worries, mate...I've a few cornfield trips under my belt for posting and sipping myself.
😉

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is mostly true - the Nic does exist. It is dormant at present. But it is not going away. Parker has accepted it, usapa has inherited it. It cannot be voided simply because Stevie B and his merry band want it to evaporate. Furthermore both parties are bound by the transition agreement, which keeps both contracts seperate and in force until a joint contract is put into place.

At some point in the negotiations, the Nic award will have to be addressed. This is the big, ugly fact that usapa cannot bear to share with its minions. The ticking time bomb. Even usap land shark Seeham says it will need to be addressed.

Regardless of whatever rash statements are posted here, these are the harsh realities for the east. Another harsh reality is LOA 93, which keeps the east pay at or near the bottom of the industry. Just how long will the east be able to hold out? You can likely expect at least 3 more years at this level. You see, even though the east has the advantage of numbers, the current TA provides for west approval of any joint contract - our 1800 votes carry equal weight as the east votes.

One thing nice about the west contract is our annual vacation allotment - 31 days, if you've been here a while.

I know all you eastie antagonists are going to miss NLC, but I'm now going to take about 17 of my 31. And I've parlayed those 17 vacation days into 35 days off. Y'all have fun dodging the thunderboomers while I'm gone.

The Nic may still be around, but I'm outta here........argue amongst yourselves.

Oh, and happy Independence Day!!


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

Most of what you say is your own conjecture. I will admit that USAPA is sailing on uncharted waters, and a lot remains to be seen. Your scenario is possible, but far from fact as you seem to present it.

If the company's legal team looks at the USAPA proposed list and can seen it clear to accept it, Nic is dead for the time being. Company legal is solely looking out for the company's position; if thye think they can accept USAPA's list and remain unscathed, they will take it. If you think Parker is somehow out to protect the westies, you are delusional. Parker is out to protect Parker's job and the company. You (as are we) are expendable in pursuit of that end.

IF we end up with the USAPA list (and its conditions and restrictions,) your only recourse is the courts. The mother ship is no longer around to fund your excursions, so dig deep into those pockets. Federal courst are expensive and time consuming as they are understaffed and civil cases come last. (One of the lawsuits against ALPA over the loss of the pension was filed in summer, 2003, and is still awaiting a decision by the judge to let it go on to the discovery phase...five years later.)

Aside from that, the federal courts have consistently recognized DOH as THE bona fide means to integrate merged work groups. So, welcome to the uphill battle of going against decades of court precedent. Maybe it will work. Good luck. Bring lots AND LOTS of money.

So, enjoy your vacation time. Before long we will all have the same vacation. For my twenty-five of my 30 years here I enjoyed a compensatory package that you guys never had dreams of approaching (since you were always...ALWAYS...the bottom rung of the industry and never had the cojones to better yourselves.) You will work to 65 and still not equal the career long compensation that I've enjoyed to date....and I still have 8 years to go, if I care to do so. Yeah, my contract only allows me 21 days vacation right now, but this too will pass. You can't change the gutter income of your history, though.

 

[767jetz]

Do you really fly for UAL or perhaps you are a pilot or F/A for a US/UAL express carrier? I fail to see the motivation???

Yes. That's it. After all these years you finally cracked the code. I am actually a Dash 8 F/O.

In case you didn't notice, my participation since the last failed merger attempt has been significantly curtailed. Since then I have only posted on 2 subjects... the call sign, and to answer a question someone asked me directly about UAL furloughs. Those 2 comments resulted in the attack squad's childish and angry antics, and most of my posts thereafter were in defense to those attacks. Who is really at fault, the person defending themselves from unprovoked attack, or the attacker who can't tolerate a differing opinion and has no self control?

I really can't help you if you "fail to see the motivation." Pardon me for having a curiosity and interest in events that shape our industry. As Captain Tom also seems to have an interest, so do I. While people like us read many forums on the subject, it is obvious that this is where the problems and the drama are. So it follows that it draws the biggest crowds. Honestly, if the people on this forum would show some maturity and tolerance for those who disagree with them, and refrain from endless attacks, most of these discussions could be condensed to a fraction of the length. But when one comment or opinion results in 5, 10, even 15 pages of attacks and rebuttals, then there is something wrong. The root cause is the attack squad.

Being a native New Yorker, while I can tolerate many different views (NY is a melting pot after all), but I also don't back down from a fight when I'm attacked. 😉

 

[captain tom]

Most of what you say is your own conjecture. I will admit that USAPA is sailing on uncharted waters, and a lot remains to be seen. Your scenario is possible, but far from fact as you seem to present it.

Unfortunately, about 98% of what I read on this board is conjecture. I'm just trying to wade through the B.S., and try to discern what argument USAPA is going to use to overturn the Nic decision, when they're going to get a chance to argue it, and what the likely outcome will be.

FWIW, I'm skeptical that USAPA's push for DOH will get the Nic award overturned. While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that it's tough to make a signed agreement just go away. You're right; these are uncharted waters. What happens here will have implications throughout the airline industry.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Yes. That's it. After all these years you finally cracked the code. I am actually a Dash 8 F/O.

...
Being a native New Yorker, while I can tolerate many different views (NY is a melting pot after all), but I also don't back down from a fight when I'm attacked. 😉

That includes being a shill for BIG MONEY political machines, aka ALPA.

You're the one that can't accept being wrong. When I made my point about UAL furloughs, which will remain my opinion, I was bombarded by you no less than 8 times, including 3 pms, including being called a liar by you (which, I may add, was NOT the case). Talk about out of control.

Give it up. Accept the errors of YOUR ways and move on. Or, at least go back to the UAL board!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Unfortunately, about 98% of what I read on this board is conjecture. I'm just trying to wade through the B.S., and try to discern what argument USAPA is going to use to overturn the Nic decision, when they're going to get a chance to argue it, and what the likely outcome will be.

FWIW, I'm skeptical that USAPA's push for DOH will get the Nic award overturned. While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that it's tough to make a signed agreement just go away. You're right; these are uncharted waters. What happens here will have implications throughout the airline industry.

Be skeptical. Makes not whit of difference what you think.

What argument? It's called Section 22 of the contract USAPA is negotiating with the company right now. They don't have to "argue" anything. If the company signs a contract with Section 22 in alignment with USAPA's seniority list, that's the end of that chapter.

Please, captain tom, realize that the Nicolau list represents an internal ALPA process and nothing more. ALPA is gone; so are all their policies, procedure and processes. If the company agrees with that concept, then the only recourse anyone will have is through the courts. And the overwhelming court precedence is in favor of DOH.

USAPA will not argue ANYTHING to do with Nic. Nic is irrelevant to USAPA; understand that. As far as USAPA is concerned, the Nicolau shame does not even exist. You seem to think it's an obstacle that has to be overcome. If, in fact, it ever was an obstacle, it was overcome on April 17th when the NMB certified USAPA as the collective bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots. On that date ALPA's internal arbitration process, and its result became moot.

Definitely there will be ramifications in the industry. Look at the law that went into effect in December, 2007, in the aftermath of of the AA/TWA obscenities. The playing field is changed forever. ALPA is obsolete and a detriment to any two ALPA pilot groups who now wish to merge. Take a good, long hard look at what that law will do for USAPA, and what it won't do for you, as protection going forward.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

.................and try to discern what argument USAPA is going to use to overturn the Nic decision, when they're going to get a chance to argue it, and what the likely outcome will be.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Right now USAPA represents both pilot groups. We are considered one unit per the NMB single carrier status ruling last December. The TA has parts in it, while applicable to ALPA, have no bearing on USAPA i.e. there are no longer 2 MEC's which had to put their stamp of approval on a joint contract. We are one pilot group which too negates the separate voting, where each side had virtual veto power. Your term "overturn" is not exactly correct. Nic has become a dust collector. Since negotiations are being handled by USAPA a DOH list will be presented as one section of an overall agreement. In addition, USAPA is not bound by ALPA's past negotiations in crafting a new joint contract. BTW. One is being negotiated as we speak. So "arguing" is not quite correct also. A new agreement will be negotiated and sent out for membership ratification. It may or may not pass. If it does, the west guys will file suit. They of course will argue that Nic was improperly left out. USAPA will probably say it's an internal union matter properly passed by the membership. What's the outcome? Who knows what the judge will say. I'm betting past court rulings will let the joint contract remain in effect, all of it.

FWIW, I'm skeptical that USAPA's push for DOH will get the Nic award overturned. While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that it's tough to make a signed agreement just go away. You're right; these are uncharted waters. What happens here will have implications throughout the airline industry.

Once again you use the term "overturned". USAPA is not suing anyone over the award. The west guys say they will if a joint is passed using DOH. It all depends on the judge, appeals etc etc. Who knows, it may even go to the Supreme Court. Maybe in about 10 years from now. By then the west guys will control the whole union if they choose to be members. Oh well.

 

[flypg]

Be skeptical. Makes not whit of difference what you think.

What argument? It's called Section 22 of the contract USAPA is negotiating with the company right now. They don't have to "argue" anything. If the company signs a contract with Section 22 in alignment with USAPA's seniority list, that's the end of that chapter.

Please, captain tom, realize that the Nicolau list represents an internal ALPA process and nothing more. ALPA is gone; so are all their policies, procedure and processes. If the company agrees with that concept, then the only recourse anyone will have is through the courts. And the overwhelming court precedence is in favor of DOH.

USAPA will not argue ANYTHING to do with Nic. Nic is irrelevant to USAPA; understand that. As far as USAPA is concerned, the Nicolau shame does not even exist. You seem to think it's an obstacle that has to be overcome. If, in fact, it ever was an obstacle, it was overcome on April 17th when the NMB certified USAPA as the collective bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots. On that date ALPA's internal arbitration process, and its result became moot.

Definitely there will be ramifications in the industry. Look at the law that went into effect in December, 2007, in the aftermath of of the AA/TWA obscenities. The playing field is changed forever. ALPA is obsolete and a detriment to any two ALPA pilot groups who now wish to merge. Take a good, long hard look at what that law will do for USAPA, and what it won't do for you, as protection going forward.

Capt. Tom
It looks this way. DAL and or NWA MEC got the process right under ALPA. First a joint contract, then mediation/arbitration. However, should an arbitrator rule NIC style for either of you, then neither of you could challenge his/her decision short a technical reasons, fraud etc. Good for you NIC is gone.

 

[767jetz]

That includes being a shill for BIG MONEY political machines, aka ALPA.

My earlier point about the attack squad proven again. The attack squad just can't let anyone have any say in anything, ever. Hence the full responsibility of their situation squarely in their lap.

You're the one that can't accept being wrong. When I made my point about UAL furloughs, which will remain my opinion, I was bombarded by you...

Entertaining reading, however inaccurate it may be. First of all you stated your opinion as fact and attacked me when I posted accurate facts backed up by proof contradicting your conclusions and casting doubt as to the veracity of your point of view. Anyone who read the exchange knows the truth. (Even some of your more level headed coworkers who told me so in private, but prefer not to contradict one of their own in public.) Let's not forget that all I did was answer someones direct question on the subject, when you chimed in with your angry tirade and diatribe on UAL, "evil" ALPA, and my alleged ignorance. Btw, did you happen to catch the news that ALPA will be signing the TA to mitigate the furloughs this coming week? To this day you still refuse to accept that your "opinion" on that subject was/is way off and not grounded in reality. Talk about denial! You are in the end entitled to your opinion, however misguided it is.

Second, it is interesting that you label rebuttals to your personal attacks and name calling as "bombarded." But no need to rehash that. Only one entity can cure the blind.

Do you plan to hijack this thread once again so you can convince yourself some more that you were not wrong. It really kills you to think that I might know something more than you wrt to ALPA and UAL, doesn't it? Talk about control issues! Sorry, but I'm not playing your game, and won't get baited into another 15 pages of sparring with... well never mind.

Or, at least go back to the UAL board!

Not a chance. The more irritated you get, the more fun it gets and the more reason for me to stay around. You are such an easy target.

Happy Independence Day!

FWIW, I'm skeptical that USAPA's push for DOH will get the Nic award overturned. While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that it's tough to make a signed agreement just go away. You're right; these are uncharted waters. What happens here will have implications throughout the airline industry.

Careful tom. You are getting close to the truth, and will soon be attacked and labeled an "ALPA shil" or some other common name given to someone who disagrees with this group. Brace for the attack squad. I'll bet if you continue with this line of thinking you will be targeted. Good luck.

 

[Piedmont1984]

FWIW, I'm skeptical that USAPA's push for DOH will get the Nic award overturned. While I'm not a lawyer, it seems that it's tough to make a signed agreement just go away. You're right; these are uncharted waters. What happens here will have implications throughout the airline industry.

Let me conjecture that the Nic does not need to be overturned, but simply ignored, left in the wake of new developments. The reason being that one of the parties that signed the agreement is gone (ALPA) and another doesn't really care (management).

 

[elixir]

Mr. 76 jetguy, would you PLEASE give it a rest?

I'm asking as nicely as I can...and I won't take 500 words to do it.

Move on. I bet you can't/won't.

Your opinion has been noted, the difference of opinion also noted.

 

[captain tom]

Thanks to all for taking the time to answer my questions!

Tom

 

[cleardirect]

Captain Tom,

Welcome to the board. Unlike others on here that think they are the only ones entitled to post here. I encourage all other airline pilots to come check out what is being said and the opinions and attitudes being forwarded.

As you can read, lots of anger. Plus the playground bully squad attacking all opposing thoughts.

If you would like a more complete picture of how USAPA thinks that they can ignore the Nicolau award go to you tube and search for USAPA. Look at the videos titled can’t take the heat, USAPA in the desert part 4.

Scott Theuer the comm. chairman states that “the seniority list like crew meals in negotiable.â€￾ So basically USAPA thinks that the company will agree to ignore a binding arbitration in favor of simply negotiating a new list. Imagine the next merger. Why bother going to negotiations or any seniority integration method. The tyranny of the majority can simple dictate to the smaller group any list they care to manufacture.

There are about 15 parts to the videos. They are from the one and only time that USAPA bothered to come to the largest base in the system. Since then they have sent three correspondences. The first not a welcome letter but a threat to pay up or be terminated. The second a copy of the contract section telling us to pay or be terminated. The third an estimated bill to pay or be terminated.

If you have the time the videos are very interesting and explain how this fight has progressed. You may notice a lot of non-answers from USAPA. The guy in the suit. He is the lawyer also suing individual pilots here on the west.

Nice right. Not welcome the our new union. But you got served in a lawsuit by an association not two month old.

Enjoy the videos. I hope the link works if not just search you tube for USAPA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjJPQNPc8B0

 

[elixir]

And while you're researching, Tom, do go back a few pages in this thread and find the link to the USAPA/AWAPPA lawsuit...it's about 60 pages long and should be exceedingly enlightening to you regarding the battle and tactics brought by the west side of the airline.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So basically USAPA thinks that the company will agree to ignore a binding arbitration in favor of simply negotiating a new list. Imagine the next merger. Why bother going to negotiations or any seniority integration method. The tyranny of the majority can simple dictate to the smaller group any list they care to manufacture.

Capt Tom -

The fact of the matter is that the company WILL INDEED ignore the ALPA procedural arbitration if it suits their needs. Somehow the west pilots think that the CEO, Doug Parker, is looking out for them. He's not. He's wasn't hired to look after the parochial interests of a bunch of whiny pilots. He was hired to look after the interests of the corporation, and that is what he will do.

The writer also conveniently ignores the fact that the law now sets out how seniority integration is to take place so that the majority cannot dictate to the minority, a la AA and TWA.

There are about 15 parts to the videos. They are from the one and only time that USAPA bothered to come to the largest base in the system. Since then they have sent three correspondences. The first not a welcome letter but a threat to pay up or be terminated. The second a copy of the contract section telling us to pay or be terminated. The third an estimated bill to pay or be terminated.

Not sure if it's on YouTube, but you might look for the video which shows exactly what type of reception the USAPA officers received at the hands (mouths, gestures, etc.) of the pilots in PHX when they tried to make a presentation there. They were basically shouted at, and shouted down by an ugly mob which purports to call themselves professional pilots. I hope it's there for you viewing pleasure. You can then see the mentality of those who USAPA is really trying to represent, and you will then understand why it's quite a difficult task.