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US pilot labor thread 7/13-7/20

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I reread your posts. It seems to me that the issue centers on jurisdiction. Can you cite any specific language in the ruling which goes to the undelying merit of the plaintiff's claim?

The first issue in any case is that the court must have the jurisdiction over a given subject and any and all defendants or else the court lacks the power to enter a judgment against them. So jurisdiction and venue (that is the place where the suit is brought) are the very first items that a lawyer drafting a Complaint must deal with when drafting that Complaint. A defendant must raise any alleged jurisdictional infirmities more or less immediately under the provisions of Rule 12, Fed.R.Civ.P. Link So, the court in it's Order did not **fully** delve into the issues. However, it did make quite a few observations.

(Before I go further it needs to be explained that various crimes and other legal actions require that various elements be present in their entirety. Let's use "negligence" (car accident, etc.) as an example. Negligence has four elements; a duty (drive a car safely within the law); a breach of that duty (failure to yield, speeding, etc.); causation (the breach of duty caused an accident); and, damages (the plaintiff was injured and something because of the failure of the defendant to safely and legally drive their automobile). In the Order the Court addressed both RICO and the extortion allegations that plaintiffs contended gave rise to the RICO claim, starting at page 25. Starting at page 32 the Court begins to specify where the plaintiffs allegations fail to meet the legal elements (requirements) of both extortion and the required predicate pattern of alleged racketeering activity. "After considering all of the allegations in the Amended Complaint, the Court concludes that the facts asserted by the Plaintiff are inadequate to meet the requisite open-ended continuity." (Order, pg 37)

As far as personal jurisdiction over the named defendants, the Court opined as follows:

"Having determined that this action should be dismissed on the grounds that the Plaintiff has failed to state a federal claim and therefore the Court lacks subject matter jurisdiction on the basis of a federal question, and further having exercised its discretion in declining to exercising supplemental jurisdiction over the Plaintiff’s state-law claims, the Court need not address the Individual Defendants’ arguments with respect to personal jurisdiction and venue. If it were necessary to reach such issues, the Court would have serious concerns as to whether the exercise of in personam jurisdiction over the Individual Defendants would comport with the requirements of due process. See ESAB Group, Inc. v. Centricut, Inc., 126 F.3d 617, 626 (4th Cir. 1997) (assertion of jurisdiction over defendant must be “compatible with due processâ€), cert. denied, 523 U.S. 1048, 118 S.Ct. 1364, 140 L.Ed.2d 513 (1998). Upon reviewing the Amended Complaint, the Court notes that there is a paucity of allegations to support the Court’s assertion of jurisdiction over each of the Individual Defendants. Further, the Court questions whether the actions alleged to have been committed by these Defendants – the making of phone calls to USAPA’s hotline and the posting of messages on AWAPPA’s Web Board – would support a finding that “a substantial part of the events†giving rise to the Plaintiff’s claims arose in this District. See 28 U.S.C. §1391(B). Because the Court has dismissed the Plaintiff’s claims based on a lack of subject matter jurisdiction, however, such issues need not be reached." (Order, pg 43-44) (Italics Added.)

The preceding paragraph was dicta, but it clearly establishes that the Court had significant problems with the issue of in personam jurisdiction. However, because the Court had already decided to dismiss Counts One and Two with prejudice and dismiss the rest of the case without prejudice, it did not need to proceed further with an actual finding of a lack of in personam jurisdiction because the remainder of the case was now moot as to federal court.

How does this issue impinge upon the larger question of which way to proceed with regard to seniority list integration, the Nic and joint contract negotiations? Don't forget that attorney services can be fungible.

Directly, perhaps not. However, in my opinion, this issue, at a minimum, calls into question the legal advice that has been potentially rendered and the issue of how a neutral party views at least some of the facts involved. As I previously posted, in my experience this kind of ruling is extremely rare. I had personally never seen one in any case I was in any way involved in.

If one were to stand back and view the purpose of attorneys in our society you might come up with at least some of these items: 1) to represent a party in legal proceedings; 2) to provide legal representation to a party in order to expound the party's position; and, 3) To impartially advise the party in connection with a given fact pattern and how those facts impact upon legal principles and rulings.

The giving of legal advice to a client is designed to provide the client with a view of the law and how the fact pattern a client brings to an issue is likely to be seen in the context of both statutory and case law. The attorney is not supposed to have a vested interest in the matter and is supposed to actually explain the pros and cons of various potential courses of action to the client so the client can make an informed judgment, both about how to proceed and whether the client feels comfortable with that attorney representing the client. Some of the best attorneys I have ever seen make it a point of giving their client a list of a lot potentially bad things that can happen if certain actions occur. Many clients don't want to hear that sort of information and think that the lawyers objective view is not the kind of representation they want, rather they want someone who will proceed onward and give the client exactly what they want without clearly thinking through the issues.

My point is that based on what has happened can you rely on whatever advice has been given, or is what happened a rather large manifestation of larger potential issues? Let's be honest, USAPA is not flush with cash. No union just starting out is flush with cash. Whatever budget exists for legal matters needs to be spent wisely. I would opine that at least one federal judge would question the value of monies that have been spent.
 
... would question the value of monies that have been spent.


This sounds a lot like the arguments I have heard regarding money spent on nuclear weapons that were never going to be used.

Was the intent to put pilots in jail or bankruptcy by means of a law suit? Or was it instead meant to have the secondary effect of getting childish pilots to simply start behaving like adults? (It is useful to note that nobody has denied the actual behavior :blink: ).
 
HP FA,

Can the lawsuit be filed in a NC Court?

:huh:

Wrong question. Why? Anything can be filed just about anywhere.

The question should be can the lawsuit be viably filed in a NC court. My answer is that I do not know NC law. However, assuming that NC law isn't very much different than federal law I would be personally disinclined to do so. First is the issue of forum shopping because if it were to be filed there in any way, shape or form you can bet your last dollar that the defendants will make sure that any judge knows about the prior history of the issue and, by and large, forum shopping is discouraged. Second is the issue that I suspect that NC law would likely have the same legal issues with the cause of action that the federal court did and in briefing cases federal case law can be used as persuasive authority in state cases.
 
Was the intent to put pilots in jail or bankruptcy by means of a law suit? Or was it instead meant to have the secondary effect of getting childish pilots to simply start behaving like adults? (It is useful to note that nobody has denied the actual behavior :blink: ).

If a court were to actually find that the reason for a suit was really for a secondary issue such as that there is a substantial chance that the party and attorneys would find themselves sanctioned by the court. If that kind of rationale is quietly the reasoning, then you need to plead the action carefully enough that the real rationale does not appear anywhere but in the back crevices of someone's mind, not at the forefront.
 
Wrong question. Why? Anything can be filed just about anywhere.

The question should be can the lawsuit be viably filed in a NC court. My answer is that I do not know NC law. However, assuming that NC law isn't very much different than federal law I would be personally disinclined to do so. First is the issue of forum shopping because if it were to be filed there in any way, shape or form you can bet your last dollar that the defendants will make sure that any judge knows about the prior history of the issue and, by and large, forum shopping is discouraged. Second is the issue that I suspect that NC law would likely have the same legal issues with the cause of action that the federal court did and in briefing cases federal case law can be used persuasive in state cases.

Thank you. I had heard that if the suit failed in Federal Court that it would be refiled in NC. You make very good points against that. I still believe the behavior of that group of West pilots was at the very least, childish for grown men (and women?) to engage in. Everyone knows what went on and each can decide for him or herself who is right and who is not.

When it comes to principles and taking them to court, sometimes you can't afford your principles, right as rain or not.

Personally, I think we should dig up Emily Post. She could be most helpful in re-upping some who need Manners 101. Perhaps knowing what is going on between the East and the West, she would prefer staying six feet under. I can hear her digging deeper!

UU
 
I still believe the behavior of that group of West pilots was at the very least, childish for grown men (and women?) to engage in.

I personally agree with that and you will not find any posts of mine where I condoned that behavior.
 
I personally agree with that and you will not find any posts of mine where I condoned that behavior.

:up: I know. I read your posts and skip those that I don't wish to sully my day with. I do think that kind of behavior is directly the result of how our culture has deteriorated. More is the pity.
 
If a court were to actually find that the reason for a suit was really for a secondary issue such as that there is a substantial chance that the party and attorneys would find themselves sanctioned by the court. If that kind of rationale is quietly the reasoning, then you need to plead the action carefully enough that the real rationale does not appear anywhere but in the back crevices of someone's mind, not at the forefront.
You seem to be implying that the actions of the defendants was not in some way illegal. On that, my friend, you are quite wrong. I had doubts myself about filing a civil complaint using federal RICO statutes. I believe that the goals of this suit were to stop the harrassment by a few named individuals, and in this regard it has apparently succeeded. I also believe that USAPA was hoping to minimize penalties against individuals by choosing a civil rather than criminal case.

USAPA and their attorneys were not seeking to divide the pilot group ay more than it presently is. That is why, IMO, they chose a less destructive route than they have evidence to support. In reality, this should have been filed as a criminal case, as clearly more than one criminal offense has been committed (mailing hazmat through the US Mail is clearly illegal).

After reading the judges response, I interpret it to mean that the evidence does NOT meet any sort of RICO requirements, at least as far as a FEDERAL CIVIL case is concerned. I agree. RICO was established to deal with on going criminal enterprises. Individuals acting stupidly, even if members of a group, do not meet that criteria.

To imply that this issue does not belong in some kind of court is WRONG. The issue is where, and whether USAPA chooses to proceed knowing that penalties will not be able to be minimized in any other jurisdiction.

This is JUST the sort of thing that SHOULD be in a court of law. What would happen if BOTH sides felt that the proper way to conduct business were to continually harrass each other, mail feces to each other and other actions? Good thing at least one side has some "integrity" (yes, I mean the guys that didn't commit the offenses).

I believe that it would be especially beneficial to the defendants to let this quietly die. I would NOT be attempting to paint this as a victory or in any other way daring anyone to push this any further. The next step may involve much more than fines or apologies.
 
If a court were to actually find that the reason for a suit was really for a secondary issue such as that there is a substantial chance that the party and attorneys would find themselves sanctioned by the court. If that kind of rationale is quietly the reasoning, then you need to plead the action carefully enough that the real rationale does not appear anywhere but in the back crevices of someone's mind, not at the forefront.


LOL! Remember Lady Justice has a blind fold! :lol:

And thankfully there has never been a lawyer who tried to make a living strategizing how to bankrupt the opponent rather than win on the merits. :lol:
 
You seem to be implying that the actions of the defendants was not in some way illegal. On that, my friend, you are quite wrong. I had doubts myself about filing a civil complaint using federal RICO statutes. I believe that the goals of this suit were to stop the harrassment by a few named individuals, and in this regard it has apparently succeeded. I also believe that USAPA was hoping to minimize penalties against individuals by choosing a civil rather than criminal case.

It isn't for me to say whether or not it was illegal. That is the purview of a prosecutor, judge and jury in a criminal setting. USAPA, or any other plaintiff, does not control whether an action is filed in a criminal context. While it is true that a RICO case brought in a civil case can be taken over by the State, USAPA has nothing to do about if it actually becomes criminal or not. In fact, that line of thought goes against your belief that USAPA was hoping to minimize penalties against individuals. If USAPA brought civil RICO hoping that the cause of action would be taken over by the State, then USAPA was very much trying to hurt the individuals. Also, remember that RICO comes with trebled damages. Some mitigation of wanting to hurt folks that would be.

USAPA and their attorneys were not seeking to divide the pilot group ay more than it presently is. That is why, IMO, they chose a less destructive route than they have evidence to support. In reality, this should have been filed as a criminal case, as clearly more than one criminal offense has been committed (mailing hazmat through the US Mail is clearly illegal).

Again, if there is a criminal case to be brought it will be by the proper authorities. Neither USAPA nor its attorneys controls any filings except in a civil venue.

This is JUST the sort of thing that SHOULD be in a court of law. What would happen if BOTH sides felt that the proper way to conduct business were to continually harrass each other, mail feces to each other and other actions? Good thing at least one side has some "integrity" (yes, I mean the guys that didn't commit the offenses).

I believe that it would be especially beneficial to the defendants to let this quietly die. I would NOT be attempting to paint this as a victory or in any other way daring anyone to push this any further. The next step may involve much more than fines or apologies.

Well, so far a federal judge has decided that this didn't belong in his court. Additionally, you didn't see me say the defendants won as much as you heard me say the plaintiffs lost. ("The hell of it is, from my perspective, that this wasn't so much of a West beating East type thing as it is more akin to a very serious self-inflicted gunshot wound that may well have been caused by bad legal work.")
 
Again, if there is a criminal case to be brought it will be by the proper authorities. Neither USAPA nor its attorneys controls any filings except in a civil venue.

All that requires is the filing of a police report, or a discussion with the local DA. I'm sure this hasn't happened, or criminal charges WOULD have been filed.
 
All that requires is the filing of a police report, or a discussion with the local DA. I'm sure this hasn't happened, or criminal charges WOULD have been filed.

That is a very large assumption. Police reports get filed all the time where no prosecution is pursued.

First, a prosecutor has a duty to evaluate the potential evidence, inciminating and exculpatory, and decide whether he/she believes there is enough of a liklihood of a conviction to justify the expense of public funds to pursue such a conviction. Next, the prosecutor needs to either get a indictment from a grand jury or have a judge bind the matter over for trial after a preliminary hearing. Finally, if bound over for trial and the matter is indeed presented to the jury for consideration, the jury must unanimously vote for conviction using the evidentiary standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt". So no, I do not agree charges would have been brought even if a police report was in existence. (BTW, I have no knowledge whether any such report does, or does not, exist.)

BTW, something you said also caused a thought that I had not addressed and that is evidentiary requirements. A civil trial would not require a unanimous verdict and the burden of proof would only be a preponderance of the evidence, which is a much lower threshold than exists in a criminal matter.
 
While it is true that a RICO case brought in a civil case can be taken over by the State, USAPA has nothing to do about if it actually becomes criminal or not. In fact, that line of thought goes against your belief that USAPA was hoping to minimize penalties against individuals. If USAPA brought civil RICO hoping that the cause of action would be taken over by the State, then USAPA was very much trying to hurt the individuals. Also, remember that RICO comes with trebled damages. Some mitigation of wanting to hurt folks that would be.

You cracked the code. There is a whole lot of feighned righteousness eminating from certain east posters here. In my view they are either being extremely disingenuous or have been misled by some evil, vindictive usapa leaders.

My opinion only.
 
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