US pilot labor thread 7/5-7/12

[oldiebutgoody]

So one of you east coast types want to explain the USAPA logic to me.

If an east coast pilot puts on extra fuel, obviously for no reason. (The company is not pulling everyone that did it into training.) That is exercising good judgment and "captains authority"�. But when a west coast pilot exercises good judgment and "captains authority"� by deigning a jump seater for safety reasons. USAPA files a frivolous law suit and attempts to get a temporary restraining order against using captains authority and following the FOM and FAR's. Calls the chief pilot, the VP of ops or the senior Vice president of operations in order to use the company to force pilots that you supposedly represent into disregarding captains authority?


Could someone please explain why this is not hypocrisy at it's worst?

Here's what I think....

 

[nycbusdriver]

So one of you east coast types want to explain the USAPA logic to me.

If an east coast pilot puts on extra fuel, obviously for no reason. (The company is not pulling everyone that did it into training.) That is exercising good judgment and "captains authority"?. But when a west coast pilot exercises good judgment and "captains authority"? by deigning a jump seater for safety reasons. USAPA files a frivolous law suit and attempts to get a temporary restraining order against using captains authority and following the FOM and FAR's. Calls the chief pilot, the VP of ops or the senior Vice president of operations in order to use the company to force pilots that you supposedly represent into disregarding captains authority?


Could someone please explain why this is not hypocrisy at it's worst?

You canºt possibly have an ATP and ask a question like that. Obviosuly a 15 year old girl with nothing better to do.

 

[LSS]

So one of you east coast types want to explain the USAPA logic to me.

If an east coast pilot puts on extra fuel, obviously for no reason. (The company is not pulling everyone that did it into training.) That is exercising good judgment and "captains authority"�. But when a west coast pilot exercises good judgment and "captains authority"� by deigning a jump seater for safety reasons. USAPA files a frivolous law suit and attempts to get a temporary restraining order against using captains authority and following the FOM and FAR's. Calls the chief pilot, the VP of ops or the senior Vice president of operations in order to use the company to force pilots that you supposedly represent into disregarding captains authority?


Could someone please explain why this is not hypocrisy at it's worst?

Clear...
I am completely dumbfounded and made speechless by your analogy... Please tell us all that you weren't serious! You were joking... right?
Geez!

 

[luvthe9]

I think that just about covers "cleardiriect" question time to lighten up on him or her.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I think that just about covers "cleardiriect" question time to lighten up on him or her.

How bout that tennis match??

 

[HighbutFast]

Just making sure I read that post correctly....this guy is comparing 15 minutes of trans-atlantic fuel on a 6-7 hour flight with a pissed off CA or FO on the West who denied the jumpseat out of spite as a compare/contrast of Captains' authority?

Do I have this right?

 

[cleardirect]

You guys are hilarious. LOL!

I must have really touched a nerve. About what I expected though. No answers just the playground bullies replying with the usual attacks and insults. Typical.

But just to be clear.

A captain using captains authority has the right and duty to add whatever fuel he thinks he needs. That is OK.

A captain using captains authority determining the safety of flight with a jump seater warrants a law suit and TRO and senior VP involvement.

Could we review the east hypocrisy real quick.

If a west pilot says that it is a safety of flight issue to have a jump seater that is trying to steal my job, that is wrong and childish. But to the east pilot using a new call sign it is a "safety of flight" issue requiring the CEO and senior VP of Flt. Ops to go back on their word and damaging their credibility.

Before the election and after the Nicolau award there were east pilots that were going to refuse to pull gear for or even fly with a west pilot because it was a "safety of flight issue". The east pilots were so unprofessional and weak minded that it would be a dangerous situation to ever fly with a westie. Some even threatened to go to the FAA about it.

I spoke to Ed Bular and he told me personally that he had east pilots threaten to go to the FAA because it was a "safety of flight" issue when we pulled the east into the 80’s using flows instead of read and do checklists. But a west captain using his captains authority is wrong.

Can you all not see the hypocrisy in your actions?

As I mentioned the company is not re training everyone that added extra fuel. Only certain captains that they think need something. Don’t you think that the company knew that they would incur the wrath of the mighty USAPA by doing that? Yet you assume that the captains exercising their authority were in the right. But when a frivolous law suit is filed against west pilots you make the leap that they must be all guilty of all accusations. Why is that. Because USAPA says so? Are you all so blinded by hate or such small thinkers that what ever the club says, you follow? Have any of you had an independent thought?

If you guys continue to attack visitors to this board people are going to stop coming here to play with you. Then you will be left with only yourselves to attack. That should be interesting to watch. Eventually you will turn to cannibalism and feed on each other. Who will be the first to be considered not zealous enough? Who will not attack the differing opinion strong enough? How long before the mob turns on one of your own?

At least it will be entertaining.

 

[Piedmont1984]

cleardirect

Can you guess how long I have been here? Would you like to enlighten me as to whose job I am trying to steal? Can you at least attempt to get your deeply biased mind around the concept that the jumpseat should never be used as a weapon to bludgeon those with whom you disagree, or to vent your childish paranoia? Hasn't the AWAPPA banzai philosophy done your group enough damage?

You are welcome on my jumpseat, because, among other things, I am a professional. You have made it "clear" that I would not be welcome on your's - because, among other things, you are not.

 

[Phoenix]

You guys are hilarious. LOL!

I must have really touched a nerve. About what I expected though. No answers just the playground bullies replying with the usual attacks and insults. Typical.

But just to be clear.

A captain using captains authority has the right and duty to add whatever fuel he thinks he needs. That is OK.

A captain using captains authority determining the safety of flight with a jump seater warrants a law suit ....

Your misstatement of facts may have resulted from your lack of familiarity with the lawsuit (or perhaps you have an agenda).

The law suit is a result of select West pilots sending feces in the mail, making repeated threats at attempting to conspire against USAPA, destructive email attacks, and coordinated hostile phone interference on lines dedicated to safety. The list of pilots in the lawsuit is limited to a couple rabble rousers that will learn the hard way how self preservation is a useful motivation for putting differences aside.

You are new on this board and appear to be doing nothing but trying to stir up hate and discontent among the pilots. No need to reply. Your credibility is in question and you seem to have an agenda of division that is not useful to the pilots... that is if you even are a pilot.

Cheers,

Phoenix

 

[sharktooth]

Sure...and I'll even do it in terms suitable for westie "thought" processes...or at least...try my best to dumb it down to the max: "If an east coast pilot puts on extra fuel, obviously for no reason." How the HeII do YOU even pretend to know what the associated operational issues were? Your follow on is just too utterly brilliant for words = "(The company is not pulling everyone that did it into training.)" By that...oh "fellow pilot"...I must assume that you immediately believe that the company's completely correct, and that you have no problem with their actions?....Words simply fail me..so let's just stick with the basics:

1) Engines need fuel.
2) The Atlantic's kinda' cold and wet.
3) A LOT can/does happen with weather/airports/winds aloft/etc in the course of many hours.
4) NO/ZERO/ZIP flameouts have EVER been associated with assinine little punks having jumpseat " distress issues".
5) Grow Up....if at ALL even remotely possible...I'll hardly be holding my breath on that "issue"...nor do I wish to inflict any "unsafe Stress" levels on you poor widdle things out there, that need to use the jumpseat as your personal little baby pacifier....Bring some gum next flight..and you'll be fine.

That was excellente, sir! Worth repeating.

Cleaning my screen from #4 and #5. "jumpseat distress issues". That is one for the book, sir.

Heck, all anyone has to do is take a good look at times/fuel on the US computerized flight plans to see that many of the numbers are ultra unrealistic. Heck, those pilots need to be given awards.

 

[Piedmont1984]

And here I thought cleardirect was a westy.

USAPA needs a forum of it's own - what is the delay?

 

[cleardirect]

Your misstatement of facts may have resulted from your lack of familiarity with the lawsuit (or perhaps you have an agenda).

How am I unfamiliar with the law suit? This is the language from the first amended complaint.

G. Jump Seat Boycott
113. Upon information and belief, the defendants and their co-conspirators have participated in a concerted effort to deprive pilots at US Airways the ability to commute to work by denying USAPA members the use of the cockpit “jump seat†on flights flown by former America West pilots as well as flights flown by pilots at other carriers.
114. Postings on the AWAPPA website indicate that the defendants have actively solicited pilots at US Airways and other airlines, including American Eagle and Alaska Airlines, to conspire in the jump seat boycott against USAPA members.

This is from the request for temporary restraining order.

3. From denying, conspiring to deny, or instigating denial of, access to “jump seats†on aircraft operated by any commercial carrier because of suspected membership in, or support of, USAPA, or status as an “East pilotâ€, or because of any pretextual excuse to hide such anti-USAPA animus, or animus against East pilots;


What it says here is that you want a federal judge to overrule captains authority and FOM and FAR’s to your benefit on ANY COMMERICAL CARRIER. USAPA wants a restraining order to cover every airline in the country. That is the hypocrisy that I was pointing out. The east I guess only considers captains authority to apply to the east. Try explaining to a Delta or American or any captain why his jump seat discretion has been taken away by USAPA.

The law suit is a result of select West pilots sending feces in the mail, making repeated threats at attempting to conspire against USAPA, destructive email attacks, and coordinated hostile phone interference on lines dedicated to safety. The list of pilots in the lawsuit is limited to a couple rabble rousers that will learn the hard way how self preservation is a useful motivation for putting differences aside.

Do you consider 24 pilots a few? This law suit is nothing more than an intimidation by the tyranny of the majority. Since you portend to be so familiar with the suit. Could you point out the names of the pilots that “making repeated threats at attempting to conspire against USAPA, destructive email attacks, and coordinated hostile phone interference on lines dedicated to safetyâ€

I have read it front to back. Nowhere in the complaint did it mention the name of any pilot that did those things. This suit attempts to paint the entire west pilot group with a broad brush. Not a great welcome by an association that pretends to represent all pilots. One of it’s first acts in power is to file a frivolous law suit.

You are new on this board

Oh do you think that the entire world revolves around DOH seniority? Because I am new to this board I am not allowed my opinion or that it is not as valid as yours?

and appear to be doing nothing but trying to stir up hate and discontent among the pilots.

Now that is an interesting statement. I am not the one throwing around insults and attacks. You need to talk to your playground bullies about hate and discontent.

No need to reply. Your credibility is in question and you seem to have an agenda of division that is not useful to the pilots... that is if you even are a pilot.

You question my credibility funny. This from a group that disregards their agreements. Arbitration!

Division? How would that be west vs. east. All ready there. Right from wrong? Facts from fantasy? How are the bullies creating unity?

 

[HighbutFast]

Dude, the argument you make is senseless...you are supposing that Captain's authority is ALL encompassing....(and it used to be...) but this is about REAL FUEL ISSUES at the end of a 6-7 hour flight across the pond....you are talking about a spiteful appeasement of some snotnosed FO who is pissed...guess what? Until and unless you've been pissed in this business...you haven't done it long enough.

I don't care which coast you're on...you cannot make an argument comparing these two issues that will stand under scrutiny...period.

One is a political statement...the other is not.

 

[Piedmont1984]

How am I unfamiliar with the law suit? This is the language from the first amended complaint.

G. Jump Seat Boycott
113. Upon information and belief, the defendants and their co-conspirators have participated in a concerted effort to deprive pilots at US Airways the ability to commute to work by denying USAPA members the use of the cockpit “jump seat†on flights flown by former America West pilots as well as flights flown by pilots at other carriers.
114. Postings on the AWAPPA website indicate that the defendants have actively solicited pilots at US Airways and other airlines, including American Eagle and Alaska Airlines, to conspire in the jump seat boycott against USAPA members.

This is from the request for temporary restraining order.

3. From denying, conspiring to deny, or instigating denial of, access to “jump seats†on aircraft operated by any commercial carrier because of suspected membership in, or support of, USAPA, or status as an “East pilotâ€, or because of any pretextual excuse to hide such anti-USAPA animus, or animus against East pilots;


What it says here is that you want a federal judge to overrule captains authority and FOM and FAR’s to your benefit on ANY COMMERICAL CARRIER. USAPA wants a restraining order to cover every airline in the country. That is the hypocrisy that I was pointing out. The east I guess only considers captains authority to apply to the east. Try explaining to a Delta or American or any captain why his jump seat discretion has been taken away by USAPA.




Do you consider 24 pilots a few? This law suit is nothing more than an intimidation by the tyranny of the majority. Since you portend to be so familiar with the suit. Could you point out the names of the pilots that “making repeated threats at attempting to conspire against USAPA, destructive email attacks, and coordinated hostile phone interference on lines dedicated to safetyâ€

I have read it front to back. Nowhere in the complaint did it mention the name of any pilot that did those things. This suit attempts to paint the entire west pilot group with a broad brush. Not a great welcome by an association that pretends to represent all pilots. One of it’s first acts in power is to file a frivolous law suit.




Oh do you think that the entire world revolves around DOH seniority? Because I am new to this board I am not allowed my opinion or that it is not as valid as yours?




Now that is an interesting statement. I am not the one throwing around insults and attacks. You need to talk to your playground bullies about hate and discontent.




You question my credibility funny. This from a group that disregards their agreements. Arbitration!

Division? How would that be west vs. east. All ready there. Right from wrong? Facts from fantasy? How are the bullies creating unity?

Jumpseat authority is being misused and even perverted by the west. Even ALPA admonished, on many occasions, that the jumpseat was not to be used as a weapon or as a means of revenge or as a political tool. In that regard, the west is - by their actions - undermining captain's authority.

The argument that jumpseat is a safety consideration is absurd, as well as a transparent attempt by the west to justify taking their frustrations out on east pilots, who are just trying to get to work or home. Someone who requests the privilege, conducts themselves in a courteous and professional manner, presents their credentials, should be offered the jumpseat without further adieu - end of story.

And our group did not disregard our agreement, because our group did not enter into the agreement in the first place.

 

[elixir]

why are we even comparing these two issues?...seriously.

One is clearly political, and personal...THE JUMPSEAT.

The other is 15 minutes of gas after a 7 hour TRANS-ATLANTIC flight...HELLO?

If I have to spell it out for the westies...it's worse than I thought.