US pilot labor thread 7/5-7/12

[elixir]

elixir,

I know you do not agree with what I'm about to say. But keep in mind the intention is only to answer your question and to explain the opinion of those who disagree with the DOH method of integration. The justification is that in the case of AW and US, a 2 year West pilot and a 20 year East pilot held the same position before the merger. Absent the merger, they were both junior pilots, on the junior equipment, probably on reserve, and near the bottom of the list. They were both subject to furlough in a downturn, as well as being years from a higher position. The justification of the placement of the two in the same part of the merged list by Nicolau (and those who agree) is that post merger, nothing has changed in the reality of the 2 pilots. They are still junior pilots on the junior equipment on reserve and near the bottom of the new list.

Why the West pilot of 2 years, or the East pilot of 20 years was at the bottom of their respective lists was a result of events and circumstances at each airline prior to the merger. I know there are many other intricacies of a merger that makes these things far more complex than a person could describe in one paragraph. But again, I'm just trying to shed some light on your opponents perspective.

Hi again 76...nope, I'm done fighting...so no worries.

I understand the "reasoning" behind this...I disagree with it fundamentally. And I know you will disagree with what I am about to say..quid-pro-quo...the introduction of 'career expectatons" a few years ago was what began the bastardization of merger 'policy"...if there ever was one.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to argue "career expectations" anymore, because unfortunately, it is far too easy for a CEO to pull the trigger...and that's it...OVER.

It is indeed an insideous thing...this "relative seniority'...and my how it has evolved from the very tennants of , oh, lets say...AFA merger policy, who have NEVER strayed from straight DOH...and guess what? Their list has been done for over 3 years on this property....

( you see, they've never bowed to political pressures as ALPA did...)

I will not argue with you, I think we made an agreement to respectfully disagree the other day...happy trails.

 

[Piedmont1984]

elixir,

I know you do not agree with what I'm about to say. But keep in mind the intention is only to answer your question and to explain the opinion of those who disagree with the DOH method of integration. The justification is that in the case of AW and US, a 2 year West pilot and a 20 year East pilot held the same position before the merger. Absent the merger, they were both junior pilots, on the junior equipment, probably on reserve, and near the bottom of the list. They were both subject to furlough in a downturn, as well as being years from a higher position. The justification of the placement of the two in the same part of the merged list by Nicolau (and those who agree) is that post merger, nothing has changed in the reality of the 2 pilots. They are still junior pilots on the junior equipment on reserve and near the bottom of the new list.

Why the West pilot of 2 years, or the East pilot of 20 years was at the bottom of their respective lists was a result of events and circumstances at each airline prior to the merger. I know there are many other intricacies of a merger that makes these things far more complex than a person could describe in one paragraph. But again, I'm just trying to shed some light on your opponents perspective.

There are two lines waiting for - you name it - movie, restaurant, ticket counter. The first line has been there an hour, the second has been there ten minutes. A decision is made to merge the two lines. Pretend that you were the last guy in the first line. Now tell us again - what would be fair and equitable?

 

[elixir]

We are discussing the VERY backbone of the fundamental founding principles of ALPA at it's inception....


Sadly, it looks nothing like it did at the beginning, which is why we are where we are today.

At the core of it's founding...and up until 15 years ago or so...it was ALWAYS DOH...then the lawyers got involved...the money...the "career expectations"...et al...

it went off track...period.

I was around when United was integrally involved in changing the merger "policy"....it was and is, in my opinion, a mistake.

 

[767jetz]

I must have really touched a nerve.

Before the election and after the Nicolau award there were east pilots that were going to refuse to pull gear for or even fly with a west pilot because it was a "safety of flight issue". The east pilots were so unprofessional and weak minded that it would be a dangerous situation to ever fly with a westie. Some even threatened to go to the FAA about it.

I think that just about covers "cleardiriect" question time to lighten up on him or her.

I think the East needs to step back for a moment and realize there is some truth here.

First and fore most let me say that the jumpseat should certainly not be used as a tool against other pilots. But fuel should also not be used as a tool against the company then either. Right?

Is every pilot who adds fuel or refuses to taxi single engine trying to make a point to the company by increasing fuel usage? Of course not. Can it be done, and done legally, while still making the point to the company? You betcha! We all know how it works. We pilots and the company know very well that we control the parking brake and the power levers. However, it is an issue of captains discretion and it is legally, by FAR, a matter of captains authority.

But to say the jumpseat is any different comes across as disingenuous. Managing cockpit distractions are certainly one of the many safety responsibilities of a captain and falls well within the realm of captains authority. We've all studied past fatal accidents where these distractions were a primary cause. Can it be abused by some? Certainly. Does that mean that every pilot that refuses a jumpseater due to safety concerns is trying to stick it to USAPA? No. Again, we all know how it works. As cleardirect points out, you guys are the same ones who claimed you would refuse to pull gear for a West pilot after the Nicolau award came out. Reason given: Safety of flight. What's the difference? This is where it comes across as hypocritical. Again, I'm not advocating it. But before you start throwing stones and going on the attack, step back and ask yourself if you've ever had similar tendencies.

As a side note, a couple of years ago at UA, a flight departed Kona and on the climb up to cruise the crew decided to balance a slight fuel imbalance. When terminating the crossfeed, distracting conversation with a jumpseater (this was during bankruptcy) caused them to improperly configure the crossfeed valves. Over the Pacific in the black of night, hours later, an engine flamed out. After a drift down and diversion back to Kona, they realized their error and got a relight. Distraction do cause errors that lead to errors of omission and errors of commission that can lead to serious safety consequences.

 

[EastUS]

Explain how ignoring binding arbitration by changing your name is “legalâ€￾?

Why bother with any attempts to "explain"....merely observe real-world events and establish your own conclusions from them. "Waaah!!..."It's not FAIR!!" doesn't work well by itself.......

On the unbelievably assinine comparison that went, pretty much like: Some evil eastie, Atlantic run pilots, decided that an additonal 10-15 minutes of fuel would be reasonable in some operational cases..."justifies" pathetically adolescant morons out west abusing jump seat control..for the most petty of personal purposes....well...I think Piedmont1984 best sums up:

PI1984: "Denying other pilots the jumpseat is not about safety - it's about arrested development."

 

[767jetz]

I was around when United was integrally involved in changing the merger "policy"....it was and is, in my opinion, a mistake.

Fair enough. I understand your point.

I guess what we need is a 2 things... Re-regulation of the airline industry, and a national seniority list with one contract and pay scale for all pilots. Now if someone could wave a magic wand and make that happen, sign me up!

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

There are two lines waiting for - you name it - movie, restaurant, ticket counter. The first line has been there an hour, the second has been there ten minutes. A decision is made to merge the two lines. Pretend that you were the last guy in the first line. Now tell us again - what would be fair and equitable?

Weak analogy.

Why were there two lines waiting for the same thing? If they were waiting for the same thing, the folks waiting for an hour must have been pretty clueless to be doing so in light of the fact that a shorter line was available.

If they, instead, were waiting for different things, the analogy make zero sense.

So I think all the stupid people over there in the long line should be.......well, see the avatar, thank you.

No matter how hard you try, the Nic is there - it makes absolute sense, and will eventually be the guide for the final and binding merge of the two brotherhoods.


INTEGRITY MATTERS

NLC

 

[Leonidas]

There are two lines waiting for - you name it - movie, restaurant, ticket counter. The first line has been there an hour, the second has been there ten minutes. A decision is made to merge the two lines. Pretend that you were the last guy in the first line. Now tell us again - what would be fair and equitable?

A better analogy is the checkout at a supermarket, two lines, one has a price check and comes to a halt, the other keeps moving, you picked the wrong line. O f course a scab won't understand that, he'll just bully his way to the faster moving line, I hate scabs.

 

[elixir]

I think the East needs to step back for a moment and realize there is some truth here.

First and fore most let me say that the jumpseat should certainly not be used as a tool against other pilots. But fuel should also not be used as a tool against the company then either. Right?

Is every pilot who adds fuel or refuses to taxi single engine trying to make a point to the company by increasing fuel usage? Of course not. Can it be done, and done legally, while still making the point to the company? You betcha! We all know how it works. We pilots and the company know very well that we control the parking brake and the power levers. However, it is an issue of captains discretion and it is legally, by FAR, a matter of captains authority.

But to say the jumpseat is any different comes across as disingenuous. Managing cockpit distractions are certainly one of the many safety responsibilities of a captain and falls well within the realm of captains authority. We've all studied past fatal accidents where these distractions were a primary cause. Can it be abused by some? Certainly. Does that mean that every pilot that refuses a jumpseater due to safety concerns is trying to stick it to USAPA? No. Again, we all know how it works. As cleardirect points out, you guys are the same ones who claimed you would refuse to pull gear for a West pilot after the Nicolau award came out. Reason given: Safety of flight. What's the difference? This is where it comes across as hypocritical. Again, I'm not advocating it. But before you start throwing stones and going on the attack, step back and ask yourself if you've ever had similar tendencies.

As a side note, a couple of years ago at UA, a flight departed Kona and on the climb up to cruise the crew decided to balance a slight fuel imbalance. When terminating the crossfeed, distracting conversation with a jumpseater (this was during bankruptcy) caused them to improperly configure the crossfeed valves. Over the Pacific in the black of night, hours later, an engine flamed out. After a drift down and diversion back to Kona, they realized their error and got a relight. Distraction do cause errors that lead to errors of omission and errors of commission that can lead to serious safety consequences.

That may be factually accurate, but it is surely a stretch here, friend. You are leaning WAY over to the left to side with some J/S who needs a ride to work "creating " a life-threatening environment...as you suggest.

The crew who is incapable of ameliorating the situation of a J/S is the question mark here..


it is obvious what you and the others' are attempting to argue, but ask any FED....ask any 'seasoned and professional " pilot..it's weak...period.

A distraction such as the fuel deal you discribe (if below 10,000') was improper...as it was obviously out of balance prior to takeoff...any scrambling to fix after takeoff was unwarranted as it should have been resoved BEFORE applying takeoff power to begin with...and possibly ditching with a few thousdand pounds out of balance isn't justifiable...in ANY circumstance.


this is a veiled attempt to tie CA authority across the board...it doesn't work that way...or, if it did, many Captains would be fired every day for indescriminantly making their own rules.

come on, man...

 

[EastUS]

No matter how hard you try, the Nic is there - it makes absolute sense, and will eventually be the guide for the final and binding merge of the two brotherhoods.

Sigh..yes..we "know"..and "You won't even get 200 cards!!" is also a long=established west "fact"..have fun.

"it makes absolute sense," 😉

 

[nostradamus]

I hate scabs.

Click here for america west pilots that crossed picket line

united pilots crossed picket lines

 

[Piedmont1984]

A better analogy is the checkout at a supermarket, two lines, one has a price check and comes to a halt, the other keeps moving, you picked the wrong line. O f course a scab won't understand that, he'll just bully his way to the faster moving line, I hate scabs.

You must really hate some of your fellow scabs over there in PHX then.

 

[elixir]

I suggest we all stop posting here until the lawsuit is over...then we'll have something to talk about.

There are NO scabs at USAirways on the East side...there ARE some documented BY DEFINITION scabs on the west side...we ALL KNOW IT...

I'm sick to death of these guys with their dimentia...really.

 

[nostradamus]

I hate scabs.

Do you hate drug dealers? Do you enjoy the company of pilots that fly under the influence of alcohol? Do you like to associate yourself with pilots that flew for bottom of the barrel wages for 25 plus years? Do you hate pilots that crossed picket lines in Australia? Do you hate pilots that are taken off an airplane, by the authorities, because they are jabbering incoherently?

america west pilots are the ones you should hate, they are guilty of all of the above.

You are a hypocrite sir.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I think the East needs to step back for a moment and realize there is some truth here.

As cleardirect points out, you guys are the same ones who claimed you would refuse to pull gear for a West pilot after the Nicolau award came out. Reason given: Safety of flight. What's the difference? This is where it comes across as hypocritical. Again, I'm not advocating it. But before you start throwing stones and going on the attack, step back and ask yourself if you've ever had similar tendencies.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Some east pilots threatenend - that is a hypothetical. A number of west pilots actually committed the act - that's a fact.