US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[Tiger 1050]

Is this where you twist the knife into your "friend's" back?

You started this little debate topic with some flame bait. Then you banter to stir the pot. Followed by telling all to basically shut up. Exactly when did you realize that there was nothing we could do except for listen to the court? Was it before your first post or just now?

Stop calling/using "freind" when you don't mean it

Well for what ever reason I have really gotten under your skin. I will refrain from further comment. How's that?

 

[Res Judicata]

More importantly, why isn't anyone discussing the blatant scope violation of 110 "large SJ's" ..?

There is Parkers "capacity reduction"...right there. 17 X 86 seats is roughly 10 73's worth of seats.

Result: NO FURLOUGHS.

Make Parker park the 17 RJ's....NOW.

(I'm concerned that the company thought it was OK to deploy the 94th RJ...much less quietly deploy 17 more.)

Probably because your new tough guy "union" is too busy planning the largest Mass Firing of it's own constituents in the History of Organized Labor. I guess that's distracting them a bit. 🙄

 

[TBONEJ4J]

Probably because your new tough guy "union" is too busy planning the largest Mass Firing of it's own constituents in the History of Organized Labor. I guess that's distracting them a bit. 🙄

USAPA is taking action on the scope violation. As much action as any Union can take under the RLA. <_<

The point is with all the noise and guff over the integration issue, which sooner or later will be resolved by litigation and/or final Section 22 language, the company can shred the rest of the contract because all the blowhards have become focused on one single issue. As important as that issue is, it will mean nothing if the rest of the Contract is gutted and made meaningless.

If you're of a mind to want to burn the place down, so be it. But if you argue the seniority integration issue because you want your piece of what's left, then you surely need to pay attention to the other things that are going on around you. If you don't, there may be nothing left to fight over.

😛h34r:

 

[EastUS]

I'll speak s l o w l y.....

O u r side would have discussed LOS but your side would only talk DOH.

DOH! DOH! DOH! DOH! Selective hearing, limited vocabulary. East.

I wasn't asking what you "would have discussed" at any point here. It was a straightforward and very simple question = What was the west's best offer at compromise at any time? If you're unable or not inclined to answer that in any likewise, straightforward manner..so be it. It's very clear that the west had no such inclination towards discussing LOS at Wye River..or really anything at all there it seems, and even your noted potential opener = Nobly not seeking a wholesale stapling of all out east, speaks volumes as to just how "reasonable" the west side ever was. None of this nonsense supports any "Righteous Position" for the west in any way, nor indicates the slightest inklings towards reasoned compromise. Whatever else is true here; You've the proud distinction of being amongst those select few great minds that made this nightmare for all concerned here. I'm sure that the unfortunates out west set for furlough must feel they owe your bunch a deeply felt thank you for not even considering LOS at Wye. In any case: Congratulations for the great work for all involved on both sides during all the supposed "negotiations".

As is properly pointed out by others; the issues will be decided in court. Imho; I fully believe that nothing therein will actually go as you wish to believe, but time will tell the tale....very likely..a lot of time. I'd say it's time to focus energy on the continuing company rapine of the pilot group = scope and furloughs for starters. Fully 10% of your side's already set for the streets at present, with likely more to come if the company has it's way, and all you can apparently do out there is seek to sabotage the legitimate union that, like it or not, is your representation. While you continue to await your nic fantasy;The obviously complete and wholesale lack of support for any/all union actions by the west aids the company's actions greatly...and yet you use the term "genius" in a derogatory fashion...It'd be funny were it not so tragically stupid.

 

[Elevation]

Elevation,

While I've never heard of a negotiated agreement replacing an arbitrator's ruling on seniority integration, I haven't seen anything that says it can't happen (with the aforementioned caveat that I'm certainly no lawyer). But it probably won't happen as long as East keeps insisting on DOH/LOS as the basis of a combined list. As I've said before, over a relatively short time pilots will migrate to whatever position they can hold with their seniority on the combined list - fences will only affect how long that relatively short period is.

Jim

Good post Jim, now we need some adults in charge to agree on how we get out of this mess. Somebody for god sake extend the olive branch.

 

[EastUS]

Probably because your new tough guy "union" is too busy planning the largest Mass Firing of it's own constituents in the History of Organized Labor. I guess that's distracting them a bit. 🙄

Nice try at furthering the now-standard disinformation and projection of wholesale BS. A major greivance action's being pursued over that very issue of scope and RJ numbers abuse, as are actions against furlough implementation...and being persued no thanks to any/all out west.

The west folks have made much of how they "play by the rules" and all that's being required of any of them is to actually do just exactly that within the established requirements for Union membership at any level.

 

[BoeingBoy]

now we need some adults in charge to agree on how we get out of this mess.

Maybe I'm an idealist, but based on nothing other than interacting with pilots for over half my lifetime (so far!!!) I believe that there is a pretty large silent majority on each side that would be agreeable to a reasonable negotiated solution if one could be reached. The problem seems to be, at least from my current outsider's perspective, that USAPA has painted itself into something of a corner - achieving victory over ALPA largely on the idea of achieving a DOH/LOS integration with any other option being seen as a failure by the vocal minority. Until that roadblock is cleared, I see little hope of a non-judicial solution.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Maybe I'm an idealist,

Those "ideals" seem to be of a purely "relative" nature I must fairly note, and while I agree that all getting along is very much to be desired, I'm not the least bit interested in any "compromise" that utterly eradicates ALL the essential principles upon which any aspects of viable unionism can ever be established and maintained. Whenever anyone, anywhere can imagine themselves, their group/whatever to be of higher "relative" value, based purely upon their egos, narcicissm or momentary circumstances/"snapshots"/whatever.... than any others within the same trade and craft...chaos and interminable internecine strife, as we see fully demonstrated herein, reigns supreme. Eviscerating the essential core value of time worked isn't the answer to anything here or anywhere...no matter whether or not it's ever to be found to be politically convenient or not. All that's ever accomplished by such utter insantity is the sowing of yet more deranged, dragon's teeth for future monsters to later arise from. Any discussion of "ideals' withn the "relative" world view, (however laughable, imho) might properly be tempered by the simple observation that all other work groups herein have combined without excessive strife and distress under DOH. Are ALL the members of ALL other work groups here merely "crazy" and without ANY "ideals" here?...or do all those others simply "get" something that both you and the west pilots seem to curiously "miss" somehow?

As far as "vocal minority" opinions go...you may well and properly note yourself to be among such sir. USAPA with it's Charter and By Laws..wasn't birthed by any imaginary 'minority"...and it's very election into existence ,was indeed, a very "vocal" statement....

 

[Phoenix]

Maybe I'm an idealist, but based on nothing other than interacting with pilots for over half my lifetime (so far!!!) I believe that there is a pretty large silent majority on each side that would be agreeable to a reasonable negotiated solution if one could be reached. The problem seems to be, at least from my current outsider's perspective, that USAPA has painted itself into something of a corner - achieving victory over ALPA largely on the idea of achieving a DOH/LOS integration with any other option being seen as a failure by the vocal minority. Until that roadblock is cleared, I see little hope of a non-judicial solution.

Jim

USAPA didn't "paint itself" (in the self-licking-ice-cream-cone way ALPA officers are fondly remembered to do).

A majority of US Airways pilots instituted a constitution that constrains the officers of USAPA. Speculating that a majority of the voting members have abandoned the ideal of seniority is entertaining... but the USAPA officers would be foolish to adopt a NIC-like new position without first.. conducting a WILSON POLL! On second thought, perhaps they should forego the wilson poll.

Sure the Judge could impose the NIC list, but the irony is that AWAAPA isn't even asking the judge to do that. AWAAPA is simply asking the judge to require USAPA to negotiate a contract that implements the NIC.

In their own lawsuit AWAAPA seeks to have the judge affirm that the NIC is a negotiation position.

Looks like the captain shouldn't turn off the seat belt sign just yet.. rough air ahead. :wacko:

 

[BoeingBoy]

<just more of the usual - EastUS is right and anyone who disagrees must be motivated by the dark side...>

A majority of US Airways pilots instituted a constitution that constrains the officers of USAPA.

Before USAPA was voted in I read promises that the C&B/L would be voted on by the membership but I've seen no mention of the vote since USAPA became CBA. When was it and what were the results?

JimG

 

[N924PS]

Good post Jim, now we need some adults in charge to agree on how we get out of this mess. Somebody for god sake extend the olive branch.

I also thought Jim's post was a welcome relief in the weekly continuation of the same old arguments from both sides.

As refreshing as his point of view is, I believe the intractabilty of both sides will drag on until the courts have rendered a decision.

Regrettably, I see no olive branches in our collective futures.

 

[EastUS]

Before USAPA was voted in I read promises that the C&B/L would be voted on by the membership but I've seen no mention of the vote since USAPA became CBA. When was it and what were the results?

JimG

Said constructs were contained within the election itself. If you had chosen to educate yourself via the website before the election, this would not seem any surpise for you to now try and twist around...

BBoy: "<just more of the usual - EastUS is right and anyone who disagrees must be motivated by the dark side...>" If that's honestly your concept, or worse..earnestly best effort at offering any semblance of a cogent argument..you've my fullest and very proper sympathy 😉

N924PS: "As refreshing as his point of view is, I believe the intractabilty of both sides will drag on until the courts have rendered a decision." Such is the natural and fully predicatable result, whenever non-objective, and purely "relative" value's ever assigned to any person or group, and will always crop up in any enviornment ever driven by way of merely opinionated and selfish notions.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Said constructs were contained within the election itself.

I'll consider this my lesson for today (sigh) - despite all the rhetoric from you and others (yawn) that the Nic award wasn't the only reason ALPA was voted out, you're now saying the election was about DOH after all (giggles and grins)...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Before USAPA was voted in I read promises that the C&B/L would be voted on by the membership but I've seen no mention of the vote since USAPA became CBA. When was it and what were the results?

JimG

Yawn. You ignore the relevant issue and then invent scarecrows that don't exist.

Everyone got to read the constitution of both unions and the majority picked one on the 17th of April. The election established the officers and the constitution by which they govern. Its sorta like a democratic thing. Pilots from CLT may find it a hard concept to grasp--in the wake of the Lance and Marshall factor, such as it was.

AWAAPA asked the judge to affirm NIC as a negotiation position. Brilliant.

Too bad a judge didn't order ALPA to adopt giving away the pension as a negotiating position. Thirteen heros get to have all that credit to themselves.

 

[EastUS]

I'll consider this my lesson for today (sigh) - despite all the rhetoric from you and others (yawn) that the Nic award wasn't the only reason ALPA was voted out, you're now saying the election was about DOH after all (giggles and grins)...

Jim

Hardly, as no such statement can be found within anything that I've EVER posted. That nic was the "final straw" for a great many...I have no doubt. There were abundant reasons for the dismissal of alpa..your sort of thinking being but one such. Feel quite free to embrace your inner child though, and find fun in imagining and summoning up whatever "(giggles and grins)..." you might imagine to be appropriate...in lieu of any viable argument of course 🙄