US Pilot Thread for Week 9/21-9/28

[prechilill]

The union will present the proper and relevent evidence on the applications to the company, and proceed with TERM procedures according to law.

The union will have an executive meeting regarding the lack of PHX/LAS representation, and remedy this issue since the west has refused to elect their own representative body out west.

Heads will begin to roll, east and west, in a random order.

Forward all complaints and concerns to AWAPPA and LEO,LLC.

It seems you are anxious to see "a few heads roll"-- your words. Bitterness tank running full today?
Maybe you should be worried about your own job since you are at the bottom of the seniority list and the transition agreement stipulates you go before Dave Odell. The injunction is coming, so have you prepared to lose your job again?

 

[machtuck]

The fact of the matter is that USAPA can not simply get the west applicants approved and re-approach the company.

Now that the company has upheld the appeal of the four west pilots the next step is for USAPA to appeal the company's decision before a neutral arbitrator.

An arbitrator will decide what happens next.

Yep...and that arbitrator will see the entire application as it was submitted, along with all relevent documentation. The decision handed down will either be a firing, or will be addressed by a union resolution to redress the "domicile rep " technicality...in fact, maybe just something along the lines of:

"...in the event there is no domicile rep for a particular pilot or pilots, said application will be voted on by the BPR..."

hmmm, sounds easy to me...

whatever.

 

[HonuFly]

No, not giddy over firings...it's sad, actually.

Sad that some few guys cooked up and sold a plan to the west pilots that will get them fired...oh well. I guess since you guys are all adults, you can live with the consequences of your actions...and you will, 5-10 at a time. (that goes for the few east guys too)

It's amazing what a resolution in a union can do...you'll be surprised.

You have made your bed...you will lie in it.

Enjoy.

I lurk and don't post much, but this is just unbelieveable.
Here we have a "person" giddy at the fact people "could" get fired.
I think the company has made it clear they will follow sec -29, but at the same time made it very clear ( even to a usapian) that they will hold usapa's feet to the fire. This company has NEVER fired a pilot for sec 29 and is not about to start.
So, you go back and make all the resolutions you want, for every one you make, we and the company will make usapa jump though another hoop. and so on and so on... get my drift.
What makes you think the company will fire a few at a time when all are equally in arears. What makes you think the company wants a union that hurts it's business by buying full page ads. What makes you think the company wants pilot solidarity so we can gang up on them and get a better contract. No the company is not your friend at usapa, but right now the company is a west pilots BEST friend.
HF

 

[ableoneable]

Yep...and that arbitrator will see the entire application as it was submitted, along with all relevent documentation. The decision handed down will either be a firing, or will be addressed by a union resolution to redress the "domicile rep " technicality...in fact, maybe just something along the lines of:

"...in the event there is no domicile rep for a particular pilot or pilots, said application will be voted on by the BPR..."

hmmm, sounds easy to me...

whatever.

It sounds easy to you because you have little to no understanding of how this, or perhaps any, arbitration works.

Though the applications were not altered it is doubltful that they would come into play in any case. USAPA never objected to the applications or the attached documentation. We know this because they in fact approved said applications. The problem is that they violated their own CB&Ls when they did so.

It would be too late for USAPA to introduce the applications themselves as material evidence. Actually they can try but it would be laughable for them to make the argument that "yea, we approved these applications but we did not mean to because of the documentation attached to some of them so we would like to have a do-over and object on those grounds now." Uh - huh. That is not going to impress the arbitrator.

As to your hypothetical decision:

"...in the event there is no domicile rep for a particular pilot or pilots, said application will be voted on by the BPR..."

That is not possible. The arbitrator will be asked to rule on a defined question. It is beyond the scope of his powers to unilaterly change USAPAS constitution and by laws to allow for a different method of membership approval. Obviously you believe that arbitrators are not there to resolve specific questions but instead posses powers of writ to dictate terms as they see fit.

As for a resolution to change the CB&Ls, good look with that. If you bothered to read USAPA's CB&Ls you would find that the only mechanism for changing them is if a super majority of the membership vote for a change.

Try again.

 

[machtuck]

well, you quote my post say "not giddy" and call it giddy. Pretty much makes the rest of your post moot.

1) the company does not have to "like the union"...(are you new to aviation?)
2) the company will process TERM paperwork as it is submitted to them...the "order" is irrelevent.
3) The union can and will most assuredly address any issues the arbitrator MAY have about this technicality....by way of an amendment to the C&BL's covering applicants...
4) the process will continue, with any required "fixes" and the company can "watch" all they want.

I'm just reporting what will be the result of certain very ill-conceived events to avoid paying dues ...if they apply to you, it's your fault, not mine.

Ableoneable: you miss my point, entirely..the arbitrator may uphold a "stay of termination"...based on current language in the C&BL's...which will be addressed by the union, and they will re-file the TERM paperwork again...it's easy to close this loophole you guys are hanging your careers on...you'll see.

 

[cleardirect]

No, not giddy over firings...it's sad, actually.

Sad that some few guys cooked up and sold a plan to the west pilots that will get them fired...oh well. I guess since you guys are all adults, you can live with the consequences of your actions...and you will, 5-10 at a time. (that goes for the few east guys too)

It's amazing what a resolution in a union can do...you'll be surprised.

You have made your bed...you will lie in it.

Enjoy.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

A few guys cooking up a plan will not get anyone fired. Please quote the contract language that says a cooked up plan will get you terminated.

Yes we are all adults. Yes we will live with the consequences of our decisions. How about you guys on the east. You agreed to arbitration. Prepared to live with that decision? USAPA wrote C&BL’s that are not working for them prepare to live with the consequences? No now you want to change the rules again.

Why 5-10? Who? Starting at the top with who owes the most. NO! You guys decided to go pick on the girls. Very manly of your leadership. Rumor has it the board wanted to go after four girls first.

A resolution from the union. Oh yes very powerful indeed. Would that be like the resolution to demand an apology from the company? I have not seen that yet. The resolution to demand the call sign follow the paint scheme. Are you comfortable with Cactus yet. I know, why not have USAPA pass a resolution that they are masters of the universe. That USAPA can do anything they want without consequences. How about a resolution demanding that USAPA be put in charge of the management of US Airways and demand an industry leading contract. A resolution telling the judge to dismiss the law suits against USAPA

Yes very surprised just how weak and useless resolution are.

 

[machtuck]

It sounds easy to you because you have little to no understanding of how this, or perhaps any, arbitration works.

Though the applications were not altered it is doubltful that they would come into play in any case. USAPA never objected to the applications or the attached documentation. We know this because they in fact approved said applications. The problem is that they violated their own CB&Ls when they did so.

It would be too late for USAPA to introduce the applications themselves as material evidence. Actually they can try but it would be laughable for them to make the argument that "yea, we approved these applications but we did not mean to because of the documentation attached to some of them so we would like to have a do-over and object on those grounds now." Uh - huh. That is not going to impress the arbitrator.

As to your hypothetical decision:

That is not possible. The arbitrator will be asked to rule on a defined question. It is beyond the scope of his powers to unilaterly change USAPAS constitution and by laws to allow for a different method of membership approval. Obviously you believe that arbitrators are not there to resolve specific questions but instead posses powers of writ to dictate terms as they see fit.

As for a resolution to change the CB&Ls, good look with that. If you bothered to read USAPA's CB&Ls you would find that the only mechanism for changing them is if a super majority of the membership vote for a change.

Try again.

Yup...believe me, they will amend their own C&BL's to address this little loophole you are hiding in...and yes, it's pretty easy to change your own C&BL's.

You guys can all gang up on me all day, it doesn't change anything....you will all smell the coffee soon enough.

PS: I have worked at ALPA 121 airlines whereby their MEC allowed for non-residents, and even seperate certificate pilots to be reps anywhere in the country, even across certificates.

again, easy....either way.

 

[ableoneable]

Yup...believe me, they will amend their own C&BL's to address this little loophole you are hiding in...and yes, it's pretty easy to change your own C&BL's.

again, easy....either way.

See this is where your lack of knowledge combines with your unwillingness to learn and leads to terminal stupidity.

USAPA's BPR can't simply amend their C&BLs.

They can't because the process for amending the constitution is clearly spelled out and that process requires a vote of the pilot membership. Further it requires a super majority (2/3rds in favor) in order to alter the C&BLs.

But of course you say it's easy to do and the constitution and by-laws don't really apply when you don't want them to....

Don't let the fact get in the way of a really wonderful argument. (You might want to actually read USAPA's constitution and by-laws.)

Try again.

 

[HonuFly]

Mach
If and when this game plays out and indeed we have to pay, we will. We have no intention of getting fired
We on the west know very well the "union" must follow the rules. they just try and make them up as they go. For example, these 4, not fired because usapa did not follow their own rules. For the objectors, so far no independent audtors statements so far.
Once the "union" extorts money in this manner, the clock starts all over again. They may get money from us, but they will have to work hard using valuble resources do do so.
HF.

 

[prechilill]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

He probably has bigger problems to worry about with a possible furlough. Do you notice how he ignores the big ticket item which may directly affect him (furlough injunction) but he is so doped up on thoughts of having a few west pilots terminated because they refuse to submit to blackmail it monopolizes his posts. Maybe he thinks message boards are totally anonymous but words do follow you, and I truly am shocked he is giddy over having even EAST pilots terminated. It is truly an insight into a bitter and twisted mind, and even more it demonstrates the character of the USAPA followers. Now we know why we are where we are... the east is chocked full of a bunch of machtucks. Thank god we have a honest legal system to hear our case.

 

[cleardirect]

PS: I have worked at ALPA 121 airlines whereby their MEC allowed for non-residents, and even seperate certificate pilots to be reps anywhere in the country, even across certificates.

Oh do tell. Please explain the situation that you speak of. A rep across a different certificate?

Are you confusing a resident with a domicile?

Details if you do not mind.

 

[ableoneable]

Here, I well post the relevant section of USAPA's constitution. Obviously you have never seen it and I think it would be useful if you had some idea of what you were talking about.

Enjoy!

USAPA

ARTICLE XII AMENDMENTS
b. In order to amend the Constitution, the amendment shall be ratified by a two thirds

(2/3) majority of the votes cast by the membership provided that a majority of the total

eligible membership casts ballots in the referendum on such amendment(s).

B. Ratified amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws shall become effective thirty (30) days after the

vote unless stated otherwise in the ratified amendment.

 

[machtuck]

Here, I well post the relevant section of USAPA's constitution. Obviously you have never seen it and I think it would be useful if you had some idea of what you were talking about.

Enjoy!

USAPA

ARTICLE XII AMENDMENTS
b. In order to amend the Constitution, the amendment shall be ratified by a two thirds

(2/3) majority of the votes cast by the membership provided that a majority of the total

eligible membership casts ballots in the referendum on such amendment(s).

B. Ratified amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws shall become effective thirty (30) days after the

vote unless stated otherwise in the ratified amendment.

You think it's going to be tough to get 2/3 majority of ELIGIBLE voting MEMBERS to fix this issue?

ok...

Or, simply appoint a "west rep" for the purposes of this issue?

Tell me, who is the "acting West grievance rep?...East or West?..

I'll answer for you...East.

actually, I just checked..you guys have about 5 east people on your behalf now..maybe one more, a west membership rep....
or a west domicile rep....

hmmm


That wouldn't even take 30 days...or even 2 days....and this NIC dream you all have (if it ever happens) will do you no good when you don't work at USAirways.

(maybe you shoulda thought this one through a little better)

oh well.

 

[ableoneable]

You think it's going to be tough to get 2/3 majority of ELIGIBLE voting MEMBERS to fix this issue?

ok...

Or, simply appoint a "west rep" for the purposes of this issue?

Tell me, who is the "acting West grievance rep?...East or West?..

I'll answer for you...East.

actually, I just checked..you guys have about 5 east people on your behalf now..maybe one more, a west membership rep....
or a west domicile rep....

hmmm


That wouldn't even take 30 days...or even 2 days....and this NIC dream you all have (if it ever happens) will do you no good when you don't work at USAirways.

(maybe you shoulda thought this one through a little better)

oh well.

Let me know when USAPA gets a vote rolling.

Again you miss the big picture.

It really does not matter now weather of not USAPA modifies their C&BLs to properly admit west pilots.

The four cases already in the mill will still have to go to an arbitrator.

The fact that USAPA screwed up their membership approval is not the only reason the company rejected the section 29 action. Each case had multilple causes of action but the company did not need to rule on more than one, and they did not.

The arbitrator will not, however, be in the same position.

You are quite myopic.

I hope you are in a leadership position. It will make things go smoother on this end.

 

[EastUS]

It is truly an insight into a bitter and twisted mind,....

Little Miss Sunshine herself speaks yet again..and the whole room fills with a warm and nurturing glow

Honufly: "Mach If and when this game plays out and indeed we have to pay, we will. We have no intention of getting fired" A surprising lack of "Spartan" resolve :blink: ..but seriously = It's clear that the west folks are playing as many games as possible, and that's hardly unexpected. It'll take time for the mess to be cleared up. I had no thoughts that anyone would actually be fired at this point, and frankly, I'm no cheerleader for seeing anyone put into such a position in any case, even if by their own actions. It's extremely unfortunate that such seems destined down the road for some though, and various games will delay any such for just so much time. As much as I loathed Alpa, I did think paying my way there to be the necessary and honorable thing to do, so long as they were the representative body...regardless of how poorly I felt they actually represented any of my interests. What a mess for all concerned here.