US Pilots' Labor Discussion 11/17-11/30..ALL Pilot Labor Issues Discussed HERE

[Reed Richards]

You come across as one of the most narcissistic, pompous and arrogant Usapians to be wiped across these pages. I would be willing to bet that the west pilots prefer you not include them in anything that you dream up. The "lessons" appear to the rest of the profession as a decade long "GED work in progress". I am betting real dollars that your class will be dismissed before your disbelieving eyes. There will likely not be any summer school as the institution will finally find its long sough resting place. Best of luck in your future endeavors!

As I have said here numerous times, besides the fact I have saved the world many times over, I am indeed one of the smartest men alive today. I have even talked about my child bride wife here, but it just got me in trouble with the moderators, none of whom read the works inspired by Stan Lee so many decades ago. They are simply too young, as are most of our West pilots. My intellect "stretches" across all boarders. As far as "wiping" I can only guess you are referring to the heinous activities of the Cacti 18...seems their view of the world was better transmitted via toilet paper...to the disgust of those on the receiving end.

Just as JMack and crew figured the "worst' they could do in arbitration was DOH, and hence their lack of real participation in the Merger activities prior to USAPA...the worst USAPA can do in the 9th is lose entirely. A full and complete loss simply moves the chess pieces to a different square. But let us assume the 9th took the case on an expedited basis for a reason...not necessarily a reason we all would agree with. Being the pompous superhero I am, I can only guess the status quo will indeed change..my guess is prior to 15 March. I like that date, it has historical meaning.

RR

 

[HPDriver]

Or the DOJ could just ignore it as "labor-management squabbling during negotiations"

I think most people are inclined to believe this as being the outcome.

 

[cactusboy53]

On the contrary, I talk to the founders on a daily basis. If you can pull back from the fog of daily events, they are very happy with the overall path this union is taking. Politics is messy and not much fun to watch, much less participate in. Different leaders have different styles, but the overall goals remain the same.

Let there be no doubt, the current leaders of USAPA are acting with the exact same goals in mind as the founders. By the way, I will incorporate the work "biblionic" in my future communications. I have not looked that one up so see if it is legit..but I like it.

RR

My questions are:
* If you lose the appeal in the Ninth, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If your loss of the appeal leads your to SCOTUS and they deny your appeal to be heard, will you still be happy with the overall path?

* If you are unsuccessful with the appeal regarding the Cactus 18, AND by chance the Cactus 18 counter sues for damages will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If Judge Wake awards the 1.8 Million in litigation expenses as applied for by the law firm that represents Addington, et al, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If you lose the initial damages lawsuit next spring, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If the damages trial is a success for the west and a class action follows to the tune of say $50 million dollars damages, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

When the assessment letters arrive in your mail box for these fees and damages and you are threatened with termination for failure to pay, will your group be happy with the overall path????

 

[cleardirect]

Just as JMack and crew figured the "worst' they could do in arbitration was DOH, and hence their lack of real participation in the Merger activities prior to USAPA...the worst USAPA can do in the 9th is lose entirely. A full and complete loss simply moves the chess pieces to a different square. But let us assume the 9th took the case on an expedited basis for a reason...not necessarily a reason we all would agree with. Being the pompous superhero I am, I can only guess the status quo will indeed change..my guess is prior to 15 March. I like that date, it has historical meaning.

RR

It simply fascinates me at the east ability to look at a situation and come to the complete opposite and incorrect conclusion every time.

Our “lack of real participation in the merger activities“.

The west showed up willing and able to negotiate than mediate and finally arbitrate seniority integration. During negotiations it was the east that refused to even discuss anything other than DOH. I have talked to the west merger reps. The east reps were told it was DOH or they would be removed from the committee.

During mediation it was LOS which was not a big move and the arbitrator saw it for what it was. Unwillingness to participate.

Finally we get to arbitration. Even after the arbitrator told the east in no uncertain terms that you were not going to get DOH/LOS the east still refused to move from your entrenched position. That I would call non participation. The answer after the 30 day cooling of from the east. “We are comfortable with our position.â€￾ Well gentlemen I hope that you are, because of your lack of participation and refusal to agree to a reasonable seniority list we now have the Nicolau list.

After the Nicolau list was released that ended the merger activities. Any meetings, panels, or anything after May 2007 was completely outside of the merger policy and therefore the west showing up was merely a courtesy but not required.

When USAPA loses in the ninth it will indeed change things and place the pieces on different squares. How willing will the senior guy be to continue on this losing streak? How long will the senior guys be willing to pass up the opportunity to get a new and improved contract? How long will the junior guys be willing to delay all of this? Plus the most angry of the group will be unavailable to vote soon as they are leaving the property again. BTW what has USAPA done to stop that?

How much more money are the pilots willing to hand over to Seham for his lifestyle while we have pilots making $40 per hour?

I prefer an April time frame. There will be a convergence of events that will certainly be game changing. So much so that I am not sure USAPA will survive in it’s present form.

Count down clock to nothing.
Possible job action and company reaction
Ninth Circuit ruling
LOA pay rates.
More 190 sales.
More east furloughs.
Possible legal action against USAPA.
Still no contract.

2010 could be a very disappointing year for USAPA.

 

[Megasnoop]

My questions are:
* If you lose the appeal in the Ninth, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If your loss of the appeal leads your to SCOTUS and they deny your appeal to be heard, will you still be happy with the overall path?

* If you are unsuccessful with the appeal regarding the Cactus 18, AND by chance the Cactus 18 counter sues for damages will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If Judge Wake awards the 1.8 Million in litigation expenses as applied for by the law firm that represents Addington, et al, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If you lose the initial damages lawsuit next spring, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

* If the damages trial is a success for the west and a class action follows to the tune of say $50 million dollars damages, will your group still be happy with the overall path?

When the assessment letters arrive in your mail box for these fees and damages and you are threatened with termination for failure to pay, will your group be happy with the overall path????

In answer to your Qs,

1. Probably
2. Doubt if we'd go the SCOTUS route, but just my opinion
The rest are your speculations, lots of "ifs." Damages, expenses, now you even got a number, $50M. On any assessment, that would include all West members, wouldn't it? That's over $16K/member. You really think USAPA could assess that? No, they'd just fade away. We'd have a contract, but no union to enforce it. But all would be good, since you destroyed the union, right? The "plaintiffs" could split up USAPA assets, what's left, maybe get $400 each, then give that back to your attorneys. Maybe you could hold a raffle for the Taurus. One thing sure, this is NOT ALPA. So, overall path regardless of setbacks is better than the Wizards of ALPA. Speaking of assesments, the old East ALPA FPLers came up on the losing side again on the Pension Investigation assessment. 73-27% vote. We may not like where that PBGC path ends, but at least we're going to get answers. ALPA wouldn't.
One thing about overall path happiness, USAPA is not about its leadership, its about its membership. If membership doesn't like the leaders, they get voted out. USAPA won't be removed. Even your former MC committee guy posted ALPA would never get voted back over on the loop board. You lost Nic because ALPA dithered. If they'd backed NIC right away like the ALPA C+BLs required, then done an ALPA cram-down contract, it would be in force now. ALPA would be gone as punishment, but you'd have your Nic. Some day you'll put blame where it belongs. That's what your attroneys are trying to do right now, tie ALPA and USAPA into a conspiracy. If you win, then you got your deep pocket.

In case anyone wondered, the cost of the Seeham infomercial, $10 (plus Seeham's hourly rate). It was done in house.

 

[cleardirect]

The rest are your speculations, lots of "ifs." Damages, expenses, now you even got a number, $50M. On any assessment, that would include all West members, wouldn't it? That's over $16K/member. You really think USAPA could assess that? No, they'd just fade away. We'd have a contract, but no union to enforce it. But all would be good, since you destroyed the union, right? The "plaintiffs" could split up USAPA assets, what's left, maybe get $400 each, then give that back to your attorneys. Maybe you could hold a raffle for the Taurus. One thing sure, this is NOT ALPA. So, overall path regardless of setbacks is better than the Wizards of ALPA. Speaking of assesments, the old East ALPA FPLers came up on the losing side again on the Pension Investigation assessment. 73-27% vote. We may not like where that PBGC path ends, but at least we're going to get answers. ALPA wouldn't.
One thing about overall path happiness, USAPA is not about its leadership, its about its membership. If membership doesn't like the leaders, they get voted out. USAPA won't be removed. Even your former MC committee guy posted ALPA would never get voted back over on the loop board. You lost Nic because ALPA dithered. If they'd backed NIC right away like the ALPA C+BLs required, then done an ALPA cram-down contract, it would be in force now. ALPA would be gone as punishment, but you'd have your Nic. Some day you'll put blame where it belongs. That's what your attroneys are trying to do right now, tie ALPA and USAPA into a conspiracy. If you win, then you got your deep pocket.

In case anyone wondered, the cost of the Seeham infomercial, $10 (plus Seeham's hourly rate). It was done in house.

Maybe you could sue the plaintiffs under RICO for destroying the union. But then again it was USAPA decisions that lead to the DFR.

The Taurus’s would go back to the leasing company since USAPA does not own them.

Now that is a statement I can agree with. My opinion is that the east pilots will not like where the investigation ends. My belief is that it will end either being dismissed outright or after a couple million dollars the investigation will reveal nothing. So no extra money, no one in jail, just another disappointment.

USAPA is not about its leadership, it’s about its membership.

A truer statement has never been uttered, if usapa only had some leadership. It is not about the leadership because this current leadership has failed and is failing at every opportunity. Given a choice they choose the wrong one every time. But the membership has failed itself also. They have allowed this failed leadership to drive this Titanic into the iceberg. It is time for the pilots to step up and take control of this union instead of letting the radical failures continue down the wrong path.

We are fast approaching the two year mark, ALPA has been off the property and it has been all USAPA. So almost two years now is USAPA any closer to getting a contract then we were two years ago? Has USAPA been able to stop a single furlough from occurring? Has USAPA been able to stop any base closures. Has USAPA been able to stop the company from violating our contract at will?

These are the things that unions are supposed to do. So far they have been a complete failure at those basic functions. Some may point to hiring a lobbyist or a newspaper ad as success. But that does not protect me or increase my paycheck a penny.

How about this pilot group remind this failed leadership what the main functions of a union are and stop playing big shot on capital hill or sending notes to the DOJ 4 months after the fact crying about higher fares.

In case they forgot higher fares means more money for the company which means more money for the pilots. It’s pretty linear.

So total cost about $400 per segment. BTW where are the other two? Oral arguments are fast approaching I need to know why the ninth is going to rule against meaningless arbitration. What other possible brilliant legal moves can we expect in 15 minutes.

 

[cactusboy53]

In answer to your Qs,

1. Probably
2. Doubt if we'd go the SCOTUS route, but just my opinion
The rest are your speculations, lots of "ifs." Damages, expenses, now you even got a number, $50M. On any assessment, that would include all West members, wouldn't it? That's over $16K/member. You really think USAPA could assess that? No, they'd just fade away. We'd have a contract, but no union to enforce it. But all would be good, since you destroyed the union, right? The "plaintiffs" could split up USAPA assets, what's left, maybe get $400 each, then give that back to your attorneys. Maybe you could hold a raffle for the Taurus. One thing sure, this is NOT ALPA. So, overall path regardless of setbacks is better than the Wizards of ALPA. Speaking of assesments, the old East ALPA FPLers came up on the losing side again on the Pension Investigation assessment. 73-27% vote. We may not like where that PBGC path ends, but at least we're going to get answers. ALPA wouldn't.
One thing about overall path happiness, USAPA is not about its leadership, its about its membership. If membership doesn't like the leaders, they get voted out. USAPA won't be removed. Even your former MC committee guy posted ALPA would never get voted back over on the loop board. You lost Nic because ALPA dithered. If they'd backed NIC right away like the ALPA C+BLs required, then done an ALPA cram-down contract, it would be in force now. ALPA would be gone as punishment, but you'd have your Nic. Some day you'll put blame where it belongs. That's what your attroneys are trying to do right now, tie ALPA and USAPA into a conspiracy. If you win, then you got your deep pocket.

In case anyone wondered, the cost of the Seeham infomercial, $10 (plus Seeham's hourly rate). It was done in house.

The $50 million is just a stab. A kind of "what if"...if you will. We here in the west have given thought to some of these questions. Regarding any portion of the 1.8 million fee request, that would likely be split by the entire working pilot group. If so, that could be around $400-$500 per pilot. I can see the judge's point of view if he makes all US Airway employed pilots pay that. That will nearly make me double GOLD.

Regarding the damages trial and possible class action damages trial: Sure lots of if's. But.....If AOL wins that as well, we are talking a lot more than 1.8 million. Are you so sure that any judge will make the west pilots pay damages for the path that USAPA has forced us down? Logically speaking, I don't see how. If USAPA gets millions in dues, but is forced to pay damages...I don't see how they can liquidate. They will simply have to assess the correct members that were complicit or aided USAPA in its mis-deeds. What's $16K for the group that split $75 million?? No biggie.

BTW, I have NO interest in seeing ALPA back on our property (probably for different reasons than you). USAPA is on a path of financial destruction for anyone that supports Bradford and now Cleary (and his thugs). We will attempt to place a rudder on this ship that is heading for the reef. We may not be successful, but we have to try.

I guess we'll see you kids in court (again)......... :huh:

 

[Reed Richards]

Maybe you could sue the plaintiffs under RICO for destroying the union. But then again it was USAPA decisions that lead to the DFR.

The Taurus’s would go back to the leasing company since USAPA does not own them.

In case they forgot higher fares means more money for the company which means more money for the pilots. It’s pretty linear.

Do you just make stuff up? USAPA paid cash for the 2 cars.

Higher fares mean more money for the pilots? Linear? You have to be kidding, really.

RR

 

[Megasnoop]

Now that is a statement I can agree with. My opinion is that the east pilots will not like where the investigation ends. My belief is that it will end either being dismissed outright or after a couple million dollars the investigation will reveal nothing. So no extra money, no one in jail, just another disappointment.

Maybe so. At least the membership had the opportunity to decide to assess.

We are fast approaching the two year mark, ALPA has been off the property and it has been all USAPA. So almost two years now is USAPA any closer to getting a contract then we were two years ago? Has USAPA been able to stop a single furlough from occurring? Has USAPA been able to stop any base closures. Has USAPA been able to stop the company from violating our contract at will?

TA10 comes to mind. $30M in LTD 401k money. On the contract, takes two to agree. Furloughs? Contractually legal, at least under ALPA's TA. I'm not sure what you expect USAPA to do.

These are the things that unions are supposed to do. So far they have been a complete failure at those basic functions. Some may point to hiring a lobbyist or a newspaper ad as success. But that does not protect me or increase my paycheck a penny.

Unions are supposed to stop furloughs?

The Taurus’s would go back to the leasing company since USAPA does not own them.

Read Richard's post. They were purchased cash. Maybe your not as tuned in as you think you are.

How about this pilot group remind this failed leadership what the main functions of a union are and stop playing big shot on capital hill or sending notes to the DOJ 4 months after the fact crying about higher fares.

If you don't like the leadership, vote them out. Easier under USAPA than under ALPA.

So total cost about $400 per segment. BTW where are the other two? Oral arguments are fast approaching I need to know why the ninth is going to rule against meaningless arbitration. What other possible brilliant legal moves can we expect in 15 minutes.

The Ninth will rule on the appealed issues, not on "meaningless arbitration." BTW, here is who will rule for the Ninth,

On November 27, 2009 the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals selected three judges for USAPA's December 8, 2009 Appeal hearing: The Judges are Bybee, Graber, and Tashima.


Bybee, Jay S
Born 1953 in Oakland, CA

Federal Judicial Service:
Judge, U. S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Nominated by George W. Bush on January 7, 2003, to a seat vacated by Proctor R. Hug, Jr.; Confirmed by the Senate on March 13, 2003, and received commission on March 21, 2003.
Education:
Brigham Young University, B.A., 1977
Brigham Young University, J. Reuben Clark Law School, J.D., 1980
Professional Career:
Law clerk, Hon. Donald Russell, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, 1980-1981
Private practice, Washington, D.C., 1981-1984
Attorney, Office of Legal Policy, U.S. Department of Justice, 1984-1986
Attorney, Civil Division, U.S. Department of Justice, 1986-1989
Associate counsel to the president, The White House, 1989-1991
Professor, Paul M. Hebert Law Center, Louisiana State University, 1991-1998
Professor, William S. Boyd School of Law, University of Nevada, 1999-2000
Assistant attorney general, Office of Legal Counsel, U.S. Department of Justice, 2001-2002
Race or Ethnicity: White
Gender: Male


Graber, Susan
Born 1949 in Oklahoma City, OK
Federal Judicial Service:
Judge, U. S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Nominated by William J. Clinton on July 30, 1997, to a seat vacated by Edward Leavy; Confirmed by the Senate on March 17, 1998, and received commission on March 19, 1998.
Education:
Wellesley College, B.A., 1969
Yale Law School, J.D., 1972 (classmate of Bill and Hillary)
Professional Career:
Assistant attorney general, New Mexico Bureau of Revenue, Legal Division, 1972-1974
Private practice, Santa Fe, New Mexico, 1974-1975
Private practice, Cincinnati, Ohio, 1975-1978
Private practice, Portland, Oregon, 1978-1988
Associate, 1978-1981
Partner, 1981-1988
Presiding judge of Department 3, Oregon Court of Appeals, 1988-1990
Associate justice, Oregon Supreme Court, 1990-1998
Race or Ethnicity: White
Gender: Female


Tashima, Atsushi Wallace
Born 1934 in Santa Maria, CA
Federal Judicial Service:
Judge, U. S. District Court, Central District of California
Nominated by Jimmy Carter on May 9, 1980, to a seat vacated by Warren J. Ferguson; Confirmed by the Senate on June 26, 1980, and received commission on June 30, 1980.
Service terminated on January 8, 1996, due to appointment to another judicial position.
Judge, U. S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Nominated by William J. Clinton on April 6, 1995, to a seat vacated by Arthur Lawrence Alarcon; Confirmed by the Senate on January 2, 1996, and
received commission on January 4, 1996. Assumed senior status on June 30, 2004.
Education:
University of California, Los Angeles, B.A., 1958
Harvard Law School, LL.B., 1961
Professional Career:
U.S. Marine Corps Sergeant, 1953-1956
Deputy state attorney general, California, 1961-1967
Attorney, Spreckels Sugar Division, Amstar Corporation, 1968-1972
General attorney and vice president, Amstar Corporation, 1972-1977
Private practice, Los Angeles, California, 1977-1980
Race or Ethnicity: Asian American
Gender: Male

 

[Reed Richards]

Regarding the damages trial and possible class action damages trial: Sure lots of if's. But.....If AOL wins that as well, we are talking a lot more than 1.8 million. Are you so sure that any judge will make the west pilots pay damages for the path that USAPA has forced us down? Logically speaking, I don't see how. If USAPA gets millions in dues, but is forced to pay damages...I don't see how they can liquidate. They will simply have to assess the correct members that were complicit or aided USAPA in its mis-deeds. What's $16K for the group that split $75 million?? No biggie.

Perhaps you better check out the AOL 24 Nov update for some tough love on just "who pays." You continue to extrapolate a lot of fantasy judicial rulings going forward based on the actions of a single Federal Judge.

RR

 

[nic4us]

As I have said here numerous times, besides the fact I have saved the world many times over, I am indeed one of the smartest men alive today....................... none of whom read the works inspired by Stan Lee so many decades ago. They are simply too young, as are most of our West pilots....... My intellect "stretches" across all boarders.

..........................the worst USAPA can do in the 9th is lose entirely. A full and complete loss simply moves the chess pieces to a different square. But let us assume the 9th took the case on an expedited basis for a reason..................

Being the pompous superhero I am, I can only guess the status quo will indeed change..my guess is prior to 15 March. I like that date, it has historical meaning.

RR

RR

You are making assumptions again. First, that age has a correlation to literary prowess. I would not assume from your age you had no knowledge of Shakespeare.

I would "Marvel" at your abilities if you could talk sense into usapa, that would be a "stretch", but alas common sense for the usapa supporter is as "invisible" as your superhero wife.

Second, a full loss at the 9th does not move the pieces, it changes the game, we are no longer playing chess, we are playing Whack a Mole, and usapa has six holes from which to emerge with a new scheme of idiocy, fortunately for us all, the West has 5 mallets at the ready, and a snare on the six hole, time to quit digging and pop out of your hole usapa.

March 15th works for me, but beware the birthday of Sly Stone, it precurses "Hot fun in the summer time".

 

[hp_fa]

So, is anyone objecting to the panel that is dealing with the appeal?

 

[nycbusdriver]

I undertands the original founders of usapa are none to happy with it's direction, notwithstaning east/west and nic issues. Usapa is fast on it's way to batting a thousand, in shooting itself in the foot.

Interesting. The founders were continuously skewered by the west here for the entire time they held office. Now, suddenly, what the founders think is so very important to the west.

It's mathematically impossible for USAPA to bat a thousand in "shooting itself in the foot." They've been very successful on a few counts (block hours grievance, fuel school fiasco, just to name two.) Once there has been at least one success, the "batting average" cannot be 1.000 (now matter how you cut it.)

 

[cleardirect]

Do you just make stuff up? USAPA paid cash for the 2 cars.

Higher fares mean more money for the pilots? Linear? You have to be kidding, really.

RR

You are right, my mistake. I guess I was thinking what they should have done was lease the cars instead of buying them.

More money for the company in higher fares, more profit more ability to extract more money for the pilots.

Quick question. Would a union rather negotiate for a new contract with a company making $500 million a year or losing $500 million per year?

The DOJ is only going to be interested if a company is overcharging and taking excessive profits. The entire industry is losing money of close to breaking even. The fares have to go up unless you are happy with your current pay rate. Once again USAPA steps in the cow pie.

Besides where was all of this concern three months ago when there were announced?

 

[BLT]

I saw a picture of Cleary next to ignoramus in the dictionary.