US Pilots' Labor Discussion 11/17-11/30..ALL Pilot Labor Issues Discussed HERE

[HPDriver]

Another great piece of work from USAPA:

http://industry.bnet.com/travel/10004236/u...lta-defy-logic/

 

[nic4us]

Interesting. The founders were continuously skewered by the west here for the entire time they held office. Now, suddenly, what the founders think is so very important to the west.

..............................(block hours grievance, fuel school fiasco, just to name two.)........................

You bet the founders thoughts matter to the West. Those thoughts are going to guarantee a damages victory for the good guys. As to the original usurpers approval of the current reich, kind of akin to Gotti not approving of the new direction of the Gambino family.


"just to name two"...okay...name three....and that whole USA Today stunt was almost as stupid as the current DOJ miscue, so I do not see how you consider it a success. That leaves the only success usapa has managed is the block hour grievance. Ain't that special, we caught the company screwing the West to favor the east and usapa had to represent the West in what amounts to usapas only win to date.

 

[HPDriver]

That leaves the only success usapa has managed is the block hour grievance. Ain't that special, we caught the company screwing the West to favor the east and usapa had to represent the West in what amounts to usapas only win to date.

I wouldn't call it a success just yet. Winning is only a small part. We'll see how USAPA handles compliance.

 

[BLT]

Does anyone else think unions are worthless, perhaps worse. ALPA is toothless, spineless and useless. Where is CREWPASS ALPA? What a powerful lobbying machine. We still can't bypass security at most airports 10 years later. USAPA is just a few pilots attempting to make their own lives better at the expense of their fellow pilots. You think they are fighting for your seniority or for a better contract. Please don't fool yourself. Pilot unions never get more than what the company is willing to pay anyway, and usually 3 years later than you could have had it. Think how long it has been since the Kirby proposal. Good thing we turned that down. I really like making less money.

What has being in a union done for you other than drain money from your pocket and give you heartburn and indigestion. I'm sick of it. Unions are completely incapable of altering the course of this airline or any other. I think the unions are actually a benefit to the companies because it allows them to turn our frustrations toward our failing and powerless union elect. The union does not protect jobs. It does not improve wages. It does not promote safety.

I bought into the common wisdom that unions are a necessity in the aviation industry. Now I can't believe I ever fell for it. Unions are not good for employees, businesses or anybody else except those directly employed by or benefiting from the union. Its ACORN for employees.

Unions give us stickers. Does anyone read a sticker or badge backer and change their mind on an issue? Stickers are for children and bumper stickers are for wackos. How sad is it that we claim to be professionals, yet we make stickers that call each other names and then put them on the jetway or in the crew room, or worse on the bag you drag behind you for the public to see! Wow that is some professional stuff there.

Unions give us picketing. Have you ever given a **** about anyone elses picketing? Did you do anything about it? Well you are one in a million. Congratulations.

Unions give us turkey. What the ****? The union is acting like an employer. Employers give their employees turkey. Unions are supposed to get us enough money to buy our own. Oh, I guess we did buy our own. We've decide to take your hard earned money and buy you a turkey with it. Really, with my money? Thank you USAPA! You're awesome. The most expensive turkey I never had.

Unions give us seniority. Seniority that is worthless and meaningless outside of the company you work for. But at least it ensures that even the guys with 30 years experience have to start all over again when they are forced to seek new employment. Thats just great.

Unions give us a protocol to settle seniority disputes. Uh, yeah.

Unions give us full page ads and billboards. Nobody cares but us. What a complete waste of money.

Unions are democratic. Kind of like Afghanistan.

Unions give us reason to hate each other. Think about it. Had the company decided the seniority issue, we would all be pissed at them. Instead we are all at each others throats. Fellow pilots so mad at each other they can't sit in the same van with each other. So upset that they give you the middle finger when they taxi by. That is very adultlike behavior. I bet that guy makes stickers in his free time.

Maybe its time to realize we are just employees. Union or not we can't control the company, thankfully.

Its time to start living like you may need to seek employment elsewhere at any given time. There has never been job security in aviation and the unions have done nothing to improve that, in fact they have probably made it worse. Some get lucky and make it through a career at one major airline, but its not because of stellar union leadership.

I think that soon we will be able to vote for a new union. I vote for no union.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I will be the first to acknowledge that until this pilot group is unified, it remains outside the realm of possibility to expect a decent contract - particularly in these economic times.

But a unified pilot group pulling in the same direction is another story. For many years USAir and Piedmont had some of the highest wages and benefits in the industry. Take any industry leading contract today, and whether the union is in-house or national, you must give credit to the union - not the benevolence of management.

 

[Eastisleast]

"The video was done in house". You don't say? I thought it was a big budget propagandamercial. :mf_boff:

 

[CallawayGolf]

Does anyone else think unions are worthless, perhaps worse. ...

I think that soon we will be able to vote for a new union. I vote for no union.

That would be the best choice for all parties concerned. Both groups have no pathway to victory or relief as long as the union is in the way. The east will never escape from the burden of having the NIC hanging over their heads and a federal injunction to negotiate in good faith. Fines, penalties, wasted legal expenses and the voice of conscience and reason telling you all along that not abiding by binding arbitration is wrong and morally indefensible.

The west pilots, if true justice prevails, will have many costly and unsatisfying victories in their future. The mostly likely outcome is several court decisions that uphold the west’s right to be fairly represented and to have the NIC used for all future seniority decisions, but that the east will stall and delay until they forfeit the majority through end-of-career attrition.

The best alternative would be to become unrepresented which would first send the NIC to its final resting place – the history books. Second, the pilots would have the benefit of a exceedingly grateful management. Contrary to popular organized labor thinking, corporations will go to great lengths to ensure that unrepresented employees are treated better than they could hope for if they were organized. In my experience the company will take every rational step (bend over backwards) to ensure that the employees are more satisfied with being unrepresented than they would be if they were collectively represented and under contract. As such, an unrepresented group should have every reasonable expectation that they would receive:
o Higher lifetime pay than a represented group would receive
o Better work rules (vacations, sick time, etc.)
o A more rational method of recognizing individual contribution

Think of it this way: if the pilot group became unrepresented would the NIC be instituted? Not a chance because the company knows that doing so would create thousands of unhappy east pilots who would then seek to re-form a collective unit that would negate the “unfavorableâ€￾ seniority system. On the other hand, would the company institute a straight DOH system to the known detriment of the west? No again for the same reasons. Would the company seek to slash pilot pay scales or keep the east at pay rates below the west (because they could and because they are “evilâ€￾)? No again and because an unhappy work group is more likely to organize than a content one. In short, the company would seek to provide more than what the union could negotiate by force to prevent the union from regaining another foothold on the property. This is logical and true because it unquestionably costs more for a company to have a represented work group on property in terms of administrative and legal burdens as well as in intransigent CBA rules that do not take the current needs of the business into account.

 

[HPDriver]

The best alternative would be to become unrepresented which would first send the NIC to its final resting place – the history books

Actually, that is incorrect.

If anything, it would implement it right away.

 

[Reed Richards]

Contrary to popular organized labor thinking, corporations will go to great lengths to ensure that unrepresented employees are treated better than they could hope for if they were organized. In my experience the company will take every rational step (bend over backwards) to ensure that the employees are more satisfied with being unrepresented than they would be if they were collectively represented and under contract.

I will need a LGA pilot to speak with real authority on this, but ask the non union LGA base manager (30 years plus of dedicated service) how things are going.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

I will need a LGA pilot to speak with real authority on this,,,

What! The smartest man in the world needs someone else to speak with authority? I'm flummoxed...

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Actually, that is incorrect.

If anything, it would implement it right away.

Are you suggesting that there are labor agreements which would survive the decertified bargaining agent that created them? Who would the company or the courts consider the other party?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think what he meant was that there would undoubtedly be some sort of seniority system even if the union wasn't there (like DL FA's) and that the company would likely just implement the Nic list.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think what he meant was that there would undoubtedly be some sort of seniority system even if the union wasn't there (like DL FA's) and that the company would likely just implement the Nic list.

Jim

No doubt a system would be required for crew & equipment scheduling. The binding arbitration NIC award addressing pilot seniority however would be unenforceable on any party which makes my original statement correct.

The role of management would be to determine how to best implement an equipment assignment and crew resources model that functions properly while not undermining the trust placed in them by their unrepresented employees.

 

[boeingplt]

Another great piece of work from USAPA:

http://industry.bnet.com/travel/10004236/u...lta-defy-logic/

Authored by another former America West employee. Shocking!

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are correct that any seniority system would be unenforceable by anyone other than the company if there were no union, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. As for not undermining the trust of the employees, any "normal" seniority system would undermine the trust of a segment of the pilots - DOH would upset the West while Nic would upset the East. I'm not sure there is a way to put the two lists together that would make both sides happy.

I have no idea how the company would or could solve that quandary, but I think HPDriver was saying that they would implement the seniority list that they accepted already - the Nic list. It's there, it's not the company's product, it's backed by a federal court injunction (so far) so would have at least some slight possibility of letting the company off the hook. Management could claim that their hands were tied and they had no option - they had agreed to the Nic list when a union was on the property and an injunction required them to use it even though there was no longer a union.

Jim