US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

My original question was after 5 months where is the summary judgment? What is going on with that suit?

But after reading all of this once again we see that the east MEC ALPA was a disaster. How is it that supposedly professional pilots that have been doing this union stuff for so long could have mess this up so bad. What I have gotten out of this was that 1700 pilots were furloughed. The intent and understanding was a furloughed pilot was offered a job at MDA. It was going to be a separate operation. What happened after that does not really matter. You all made a decision based on that information.

The grievance is another thing that is between you and the company. What bothers me is that some east pilots are using this as something that it is not. A way to change the Nicolau. Again it is a matter of education or misunderstanding by east pilots. You MDA guys better explain that your suit will not change the Nicolau for a couple of reason.

First question. If you have 6 pilots A,B,C,D,E,F,G. If pilot A went to MDA pilot B did not and was furloughed. How could pilot C,D,E,F,G not be furloughed. You guys are all about straight seniority right. Anyone junior to B would be furloughed. If pilot F went to MDA but pilot C,D,E did not how or why should those pilots get anything or be moved senior to O’Dell? They can’t.

Next! Nicolau used the logic that wide body pilot had some premium entitlement. So he gave east pilots the top 517 because they made more. He then ratioed the rest of us together. He then placed the furloughed pilot that did not bring a job at the bottom. Like a lot of mergers have done. But you guys say that 300 of you were not furloughed. So using the same logic that the WB deserve to be senior. Than a small 170 jet that payed less than the NB mainline should go to the bottom. Furloughed or not it does not matter. The logic still holds.

Last question. The ninth circuit has stated that without a contract there is no harm so it is not ripe. We do not have a contract. There is no harm to the MDA pilots. How is this case ripe?

$175,000,000.00 for damages because you got a furloughed letter and went to fly for a commuter. Then were placed at the bottom of an integrated list. Really $583,000.00 each is what you think you are entitled to. Sure good luck with that.

You need to understand this a little better, and have a little empathy for what happened to these guys. The East MEC was practically in bed with the company on numerous issues, this being one of them. It isn't going to get glossed over just because you can't get a grasp on it.

 

[Black Swan]

Dates and the sequence of events becomes important. US agreed to sell the 170's to Republic in early 2005 (January or February). That's what triggered the change of control grievance - no separate MDA no change of control so the MEC kept the pretense going.

The PID was May 2005, which was the seniority list certified by the East MC. Prior to completion of the change of control grievance and the one-off seniority list showing the MDA pilots as recalled to mainline.

The change of control grievance arbitrator issued his ruling in favor of the company in late 2005 after Jerry Glass testified that there was no separate MDA backed up with the merger of MDA and US Inc that happened in 2004.

Only then did the MEC drop the pretense that MDA wasn't a separate carrier and got the one-off seniority list showing the MDA pilots as mainline. By then the East MC had already certified the other list showing the MDA pilots as furloughed.

So it's not like everything happened at the same time. It was spread out over a year or so with the PID being in the middle of it all. If the "they" in your question refers to the MC, who certified the list, not National, because it was the only list that existed on the PID. It would have been hard to certify a list that didn't exist and with the East MEC insisting that the MDA pilots were furloughed. If you meant ALPA, neither the MEC nor National certify the list - that's the duty of the MC's.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I hate to say it, but a lot of these facts were never revealed to the average East line pilot. Unfortunately, many chose to believe the MEC was acting in the best interests of the pilots. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as you reveal.

 

[Black Swan]

I'd just ask where all that support was when the pilots voted to allow the company to sell the E-170's out from under the pilots flying them? Where was that support when the E-170 pilots were being refurloughed as the E-170's were transferred to Republic? Where was all that support during seniority integration negotiations? Where was all that support during the arbitration process? Why was it only after the Nic award came out that there was suddenly a lot of support for the MDA suit against ALPA?

Jim

I disagree. The information you refer to in the MDA suit was not readily available to the line pilot. This was a long, arduous discovery process. I learned a little from each former MDA pilot I flew with. The ALPA EAST MEC was not giving ANY of this information to us. This honestly did not have anything to do with the Nic as far as I was concerned. This was just one more, of numerous transgressions that got ALPA launched. We got rid of ALPA, and it took out every East MEC member who had a hand in this in one swift kill. Knowing what these guys did with regard to MDA(east mec) would you have not taken the shot to eliminate them yourself? Or let them stay?

 

[Black Swan]

Therefore, we certainly will not retire under it.

Also, loa93 is not the direct source of the West's profit sharing.

You got it from the East MEC chair Stephan breaking the tie from the local councils that were deadlocked. From our perspective, without pay parity also, another reason to take Stephan, and the weak sisters out of power. Had I been in that position, it NEVER would have happened unless there was a joint contract and pay parity.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You need to understand this a little better, and have a little empathy for what happened to these guys. The East MEC was practically in bed with the company on numerous issues, this being one of them.

So how does that justify taking from the West what is rightfully theirs? Answer: it doesn't. Those are/were your issues at your old airline. You're welcome to keep all your rotten garbage on your side. Frankly, I can give a rat's a$$ about what you all did to each other prior to this acquisition veiled as a merger.

It isn't going to get glossed over just because you can't get a grasp on it.

See above. It's your problem and you're welcome to deal with it amongst yourselves. But don't think for a second that anyone who looks at your MDA situation will ever agree that it's a justification to ignore a binding arbitration and instead cram down DOH.

It seems to be finally sinking in that seniority is not like crew meals.

 

[Black Swan]

I'd just ask where all that support was when the pilots voted to allow the company to sell the E-170's out from under the pilots flying them? Where was that support when the E-170 pilots were being refurloughed as the E-170's were transferred to Republic? Where was all that support during seniority integration negotiations? Where was all that support during the arbitration process? Why was it only after the Nic award came out that there was suddenly a lot of support for the MDA suit against ALPA?

Jim

How do you fight min fleet when you signed on the dotted line?

 

[aquagreen73s]

How do you fight min fleet when you signed on the dotted line?

Exactly. The company right now is posing the same question to a federal judge regarding the binding arbitration process they agreed to in the Transition Agreement.

 

[prechilill]

How? By clicking your heels together and wishing it to be true while another three years plus under bankruptcy wages pass by?

I wouldn't call it bankruptcy wages, that's a little harsh. How about "regional wages", like Horizon Airlines since their CRJ-700 captains now make about as much as East A320 captains, only the Horizon guys actually have work rules and trip rigs so maybe that is too demeaning of a comparison to Horizon.

 

[Phoenix]

...

So what if there is some sort of good friendly fire from the entire MDA affair. Your own reverse logic is perverse in that once again you want to blame individual East pilots (same ones that pulled your gear) for all the problems of the world, including your false and demeaning blanket statement about their treatment of MDA pilots. I instead praise them, for finally (apparently not soon enough for your liking) doing what was necessary to correct the evils and disgrace that was ALPA National. Remember, all of us, including the MDA and J4J guys voted in the NMB election. Thanks to USAPA for at least trying to sort this all out, instead of sitting in a Lazy-boy and spouting hate mail about how awful your own fellow pilots are/were. It was those same individual line pilots that voted in USAPA and will ultimately lead to the correct placement of MDA pilots on the combined list.

RR

Yeah, its ironic how some folks want to talk about how mean pilots were and that they really aren't being nice now that they only "appear" to be doing what is right because it now suits them (ie. they are still really being mean at heart)... so they really ought to continue doing what was wrong like they used to be doing so that they can be good (in some strange way). Ha! Why try to contort ourselves into so many pretzel positions to please... to please... to please who?! If you are doing the right thing and someone wants to slander your motives then.. blah, blah, blah.

 

[sumadarson]

I'd just ask where all that support was when the pilots voted to allow the company to sell the E-170's out from under the pilots flying them? Where was that support when the E-170 pilots were being refurloughed as the E-170's were transferred to Republic? Where was all that support during seniority integration negotiations? Where was all that support during the arbitration process? Why was it only after the Nic award came out that there was suddenly a lot of support for the MDA suit against ALPA?

Jim

The following is what you witnessed at your own previous airline you worked for, and represented them as an ALPA Rep and stood by and did nothing. A staple job pure and simple, now you pontificate here about a DOH list with C and R and pilots getting screwed. Hypocrisy, pure and simple.

PIEDMCNT AVIATION, INC.
and
THE AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
PIEDMCNT AVIATION, INC.
as represented by
THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION,
INTERNATIONAL
I
EMPIRE MERGER
THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into i n accordance with the
provisions of Title I1 of the Railway Labor Act, as mended, by and betwen
Piedmont Aviation, Incorporated (hereinafter referred to as the "CompanyP') and
the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter referred t o as the
"Association).
W ITNESSETH
WHEREAS the Company and the Association wish to enter into an agreement with
respect t o the manner i n which the basic collective bargaining agreement
between the parties, dated June 12, 1984, and associated letters of agreement,
shall be applied to matters related to the merger of the Empire Airlines p i l o t s
into Piedmont, it is therefore mutually agreed as follows:

SENIORITY:
Seniority s h a l l continue t o be governed by the provisions of Section 19 of the
Basic Agreement except as follows:
A. Former Empire p i l o t s shall be placed on the Piedmont Pilot System
Seniority List on January 3, 1986 following the most junior Piedmont
p i l o t i n the same order that they appear on the Empire Pilot Seniority
List dated January 15, 1986.

FOR THE AIRLINE PILOTS I N THE
SERVICE OF PIEDMONT AVIATION, INC.

Signed

Henry Duffy (Hank)
President
Airline Pilots Association International

 

[aquagreen73s]

The following is what you witnessed at your own previous airline you worked for, and represented them as an ALPA Rep and stood by and did nothing. A staple job pure and simple, now you pontificate here about a DOH list with C and R and pilots getting screwed. Hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Why isn't USAPA returning Empire's DOH in their "DOH" list?

Edit: and by the way, I take it you'd agree with me that the union's motivations alone cannot be trusted to fairly integrate a seniority list. What you're basically complaining of is exactly what USAPA is doing now. Well, trying hard without much success Finally, I take it that you would agree that the fairest way to integrate Empire and Piedmont would have been through a third party neutral; you know, one at arm's length who has no vested interest for either side. Yes?

 

[Reed Richards]

I wouldn't call it bankruptcy wages, that's a little harsh. How about "regional wages", like Horizon Airlines since their CRJ-700 captains now make about as much as East A320 captains, only the Horizon guys actually have work rules and trip rigs so maybe that is too demeaning of a comparison to Horizon.

You are so correct about our wages, and of course none of us really have anything to crow about pay wise.

That said, I am more than happy to work for my "slightly less than AWA" Regional wages......... with a strong section I in hand.

The real point I was trying to make was USAPA from the get go did not see, or attempt to use the MDA situation for any leverage. To us it was just another ALPA festering problem that needed correcting. It appears it might now have some relevance. Maybe not. At the rate it is going in the Courts, we might all be gone before the issue is even settled. But USAPA will fix the underlying problem going forward regardless of the results of their DFR.

RR

 

[sumadarson]

Why isn't USAPA returning Empire's DOH in their "DOH" list?

Boeing Boy and associates made that impossible when he was an ALPA Rep for Piedmont. He stood by and said nothing. ALPA National buried the possibilities for the Empire Pilots to improve their seniority in the future.

Appeals Court, Empire vs Piedmont and ALPA National

Your witness sir.

(Expect cherry picking from the West pilots regarding the decision.)

 

[sumadarson]

My link

 

[aquagreen73s]

Boeing Boy and associates made that impossible when he was an ALPA Rep for Piedmont. He stood by and said nothing. ALPA National buried the possibilities for the Empire Pilots to improve their seniority in the future.

Appeals Court, Empire vs Piedmont and ALPA National

Your witness sir.

(Expect cherry picking from the West pilots regarding the decision.)

Did you actually bother to read this opinion? Particularly paras 13-16? Here, let me cut and paste paragraph 16 for all to read:

"Here, even assuming that the DOT's final order actually decided the question of whether the 1985 agreement had proven substantively fair to the Empire pilots, it did not directly answer the question of whether the procedures under which the Empire pilots' seniority rights were determined were fair. Standing alone, the fact that a merger might result in improved wages or working conditions for a group of employees, as the DOT found here, does not necessarily prove that the union has done all it should have done to further those employees' interests."

AWA and AAA had a process and that process was completed. Moreover, that process which determined how our seniority would be integrated is considered throughout the legal community to be the most objective process in resolving disputes. In other words, arbitration decsions are presumed to be substantively fair, but what the 2nd Cir. is talking about in para 16 is procedural fairness. Did the Empire pilots have a fair opportunity to be heard. Answer: yes - the same as the AAA pilots before Nicolau.

USAPA doesn't have a prayer of ever achieving DOH at this point. All you guys are doing is wasting the remaining years of your career on BK wages.

One more edit: read the concurring opinion. Here, let me cut and paste it for all to read:

"As the majority opinion indicates, the proposal advanced by appellants to appellees was urged largely on the ground that it "was necessary to compensate for losses suffered by the Empire pilots from the 1985 integration." Majority opinion, ante at 221. In my view, the district court properly ruled that ( a) to the extent appellants' present suit constitutes a direct challenge to the 1985 integration of the Empire and Piedmont seniority lists, it is barred both by the six-month statute of limitations and as a collateral attack on the 1986 order of the United States Department of Transportation; and B. to the extent that the suit does not challenge the 1985 events, it is entirely insufficient to pose a claim of breach of the duty of fair representation."

Nicolau was way more than six months ago. You guys are toast. The Nic commeth.