US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Reed Richards]

Folks you'd best pay attention to the above. APA has a documented track record regarding seniority issues and general overall bludgeoning of the smaller workgroup. If, as I suspect a merger does transpire the only thing USAPA (East & West) will have going in your favor is the 6 years of open warfare with each other. In that regard you'll have more experience than APA.

So if I were the pilot group, I'd assume a merger and get a joint contract and focus on the merger and the challenges that integration with APA will entail. Time to prepare for the next war, this one is essentially over and no matter the terms, the Company won.

Sparrow, you have nailed it. But it is much, much too late for these two pilot groups to even wish for a pre M&A merger and joint contract. Whatever Scope (and I use that as a general term to also include change of control) each group has will be the cards they play at the three way table. Parker backs me up on that..a three way coming your way.

The AA guys and gals are in the same boat, and I have no idea what they bring to the game. Obviously, no deals were cut at the last minute..they chose to enter BK with the language they owned. Any contracts voted in there (via FUD and threats to retirements..been there, done that) will be done with the clear understanding any scope they have survives. Why would they give that up under fire? Because of our two BKs, East has some of the strongest scope language in the industry. That being our “lottery ticket,” we can only cash it in during M&A. Here comes the trip to the payout window!

LOA 93 loss was a loss for both groups..even the middle win (18% with 3% raises) might have eventually benefited all with some bargaining movement. Not going to happen now, and if the 3% raises come East (as I predict they will) they are too small to move things along. You now have your scope (none!) and we have ours.

No joint contract. No Nic. Nobody cares about East and West going forward in the big three way. That ship has sailed.

As best I can tell all the aircraft (after almost 7 years) are now repainted. My last three COMPLETED mergers tell me new paint jobs are now on the way.

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Here are some of the key weaknesses to the Scope language in the West contract:

• The title of the West Contract Section 1 says it all; Recognition, Scope and MANAGEMENT Rights.
• The East Contract Section 1 says:
• RECOGNITION, SCOPE, SUCCESSORSHIP, AND LABOR PROTECTIVE PROVISIONS.
• In the event of a complete merger…. There is no language in the event of a partial merger or asset sales in this particular section. East language has 20% of assets language, and does not differentiate between complete and incomplete merger.
• “Where the surviving carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations”…. What if the surviving carrier decides not to have a large hub in Phoenix or Las Vegas and substantially downsizes these from Hubs to a “Focus Citie” as they did with Pittsburgh? No protection! It could be argued that this language then does not apply. If there is a substantial change to “pre-merger operations” then this language may not apply and not protect the pilots.
• …the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate… the two pilot groups in the same manner as stated in (1) of this paragraph. This is a deal killer. Reasonable Efforts are a non-defined term. The company could ask the transferee to comply with the seniority provision and the transferee simply says no. So much for reasonable efforts ! There are no teeth in this agreement and no way to force the company to comply.

A deal could be easily structured to avoid any Scope obligation at all in the West language.

The East Language is much more concrete:
East language talks about asset transfers and sales not aircraft transfers only.
East language is binding on the successor with no “reasonable efforts” language.
East language does not require a complete merger, only a triggering event of 20%.
East language gives USAPA the right to re-enter section 6 or extend the contract.
East language does not depend on language regarding pre-merger operations integration.
East language gives CAR’s or contingent acquisition rights to the pilots.
East language has withstood several mergers and two bankruptcies and is still largely intact.

WEST SCOPE LANAGUAGE IS ESSENTIALLY NON-EXISTANT!!

RR

 

[Beancounter]

Come on beany we know what you would do...down on your knees ......give him your wallet.....then thank him as he walks away.

But, we didn't did we. It must have really thrown a monkey wrench in you plans. We didn't roll over and give you our seniority to make up for your pathetic career choice. Soooo sad, too bad, little man.

 

[Pi brat]

But, we didn't did we. It must have really thrown a monkey wrench in you plans. We didn't roll over and give you our seniority to make up for your pathetic career choice. Soooo sad, too bad, little man.

Pathetic career choice? Really? I chose to go with Piedmont Airlines, you chose to go with America West. Do you really want to play that game?

Tell me again about my failed career. You never responded to that, did you?

 

[Beancounter]

Here are some of the key weaknesses to the Scope language in the West contract:

• The title of the West Contract Section 1 says it all; Recognition, Scope and MANAGEMENT Rights.
• The East Contract Section 1 says:
• RECOGNITION, SCOPE, SUCCESSORSHIP, AND LABOR PROTECTIVE PROVISIONS.
• In the event of a complete merger…. There is no language in the event of a partial merger or asset sales in this particular section. East language has 20% of assets language, and does not differentiate between complete and incomplete merger.
• “Where the surviving carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations”…. What if the surviving carrier decides not to have a large hub in Phoenix or Las Vegas and substantially downsizes these from Hubs to a “Focus Citie” as they did with Pittsburgh? No protection! It could be argued that this language then does not apply. If there is a substantial change to “pre-merger operations” then this language may not apply and not protect the pilots.
• …the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate… the two pilot groups in the same manner as stated in (1) of this paragraph. This is a deal killer. Reasonable Efforts are a non-defined term. The company could ask the transferee to comply with the seniority provision and the transferee simply says no. So much for reasonable efforts ! There are no teeth in this agreement and no way to force the company to comply.

A deal could be easily structured to avoid any Scope obligation at all in the West language.

The East Language is much more concrete:
East language talks about asset transfers and sales not aircraft transfers only.
East language is binding on the successor with no “reasonable efforts” language.
East language does not require a complete merger, only a triggering event of 20%.
East language gives USAPA the right to re-enter section 6 or extend the contract.
East language does not depend on language regarding pre-merger operations integration.
East language gives CAR’s or contingent acquisition rights to the pilots.
East language has withstood several mergers and two bankruptcies and is still largely intact.

WEST SCOPE LANAGUAGE IS ESSENTIALLY NON-EXISTANT!!

RR

Ohhhh Noooooooo! I better quick hand you over my seniority and beg for forgiveness. Nice try, how about we let the courts settle it.

I suggest less capitalization. When you do, you get excited/emotional and your spelling goes out the window. Kind of like making poor decisions under emotional stress. The east seems to have a tack record of that kind of thing.

 

[Res Judicata]

Pathetic career choice? Really? I chose to go with Piedmont Airlines, you chose to go with America West. Do you really want to play that game?

Tell me again about my failed career. You never responded to that, did you?

Of course you don't have a "failed" career Per Se. America West saved you from total failure. On your own, you went BK twice, and very nearly a 3rd time in the mid-90's....not to mention the Jaws of Chapter 7 that Doug Parker snatched you out of.

I'd say you're like a cat with 9 lives...or a demon like creature like Jason from the Friday the 13th movies....Either way, You just won't die. As un-natural as it may be, you're still here.

Thank Doug at the next crew news.

 

[mrbreeze]

Of course you don't have a "failed" career Per Se. America West saved you from total failure. On your own, you went BK twice, and very nearly a 3rd time in the mid-90's....not to mention the Jaws of Chapter 7 that Doug Parker snatched you out of.

I'd say you're like a cat with 9 lives...or a demon like creature like Jason from the Friday the 13th movies....Either way, You just won't die. As un-natural as it may be, you're still here.

Thank Doug at the next crew news.

Parker snatched the East operation because he saw value in it and a chance for him to put a lot of money in his pocket. He couldn't care less about you boys out West. If he didn't see value in merging with USAir, you boys would have been out of a job too. Where did that value come from, you ask? The gutted contract on the East and the East pilot's willingness to invest $9 billion to further their careers.

Tell me again, how much value did you guys bring to the table? Yeah, I thought so, zero....nil....nada.

breeze

 

[traderjake]

If he didn't see value in merging with USAir, you boys would have been out of a job too.

"too"

So you admit that without the merger East pilots would have been out of a job.

How do you claim the right to jobs (created by attrition) that were not going to exist?

 

[Res Judicata]

Parker snatched the East operation because he saw value in it and a chance for him to put a lot of money in his pocket. He couldn't care less about you boys out West. If he didn't see value in merging with USAir, you boys would have been out of a job too. Where did that value come from, you ask? The gutted contract on the East and the East pilot's willingness to invest $9 billion to further their careers.

Tell me again, how much value did you guys bring to the table? Yeah, I thought so, zero....nil....nada.

breeze

You're simply speculating....projecting a wish upon reality. Myself on the other hand, have all the US Airways BK docs on my computer. Guess which scenario is real. Tell me, If *nobody* saw the "value" of the East operation, (bk ya know) what on Earth makes you think that all of the sudden, out of the jaws of Chap. 7...you're magically worth something? Was is the fact that you had more pilots on furlough than the West had active? Is that the "metric of success" you're referring to? How much value did we bring to the table? I dunno, what's your net worth?

 

[Move2CLT]

Pathetic career choice? Really? I chose to go with Piedmont Airlines, you chose to go with America West.

And where did that get us?

 

[Move2CLT]

Parker snatched the East operation because he saw value in it and a chance for him to put a lot of money in his pocket. He couldn't care less about you boys out West. If he didn't see value in merging with USAir, you boys would have been out of a job too. Where did that value come from, you ask? The gutted contract on the East and the East pilot's willingness to invest $9 billion to further their careers.

Tell me again, how much value did you guys bring to the table? Yeah, I thought so, zero....nil....nada.

breeze

Not for a long time boo boo. $400M in the bank at the time of the merger. We would have gone a while before filing for C11.

We had a whole lot of options.

 

[traderjake]

AMR Record $4.1 Billion Bankruptcy Cash Mutes Takeover Risk

http://news.businessweek.com/article.asp?documentKey=1376-LVJIRU1A74E901-13UC6JI3EOCG5KTJCKHFDIED

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Here are some of the key weaknesses to the Scope language in the West contract:

• The title of the West Contract Section 1 says it all; Recognition, Scope and MANAGEMENT Rights.
• The East Contract Section 1 says:
• RECOGNITION, SCOPE, SUCCESSORSHIP, AND LABOR PROTECTIVE PROVISIONS.
• In the event of a complete merger…. There is no language in the event of a partial merger or asset sales in this particular section. East language has 20% of assets language, and does not differentiate between complete and incomplete merger.
• “Where the surviving carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations”…. What if the surviving carrier decides not to have a large hub in Phoenix or Las Vegas and substantially downsizes these from Hubs to a “Focus Citie” as they did with Pittsburgh? No protection! It could be argued that this language then does not apply. If there is a substantial change to “pre-merger operations” then this language may not apply and not protect the pilots.
• …the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate… the two pilot groups in the same manner as stated in (1) of this paragraph. This is a deal killer. Reasonable Efforts are a non-defined term. The company could ask the transferee to comply with the seniority provision and the transferee simply says no. So much for reasonable efforts ! There are no teeth in this agreement and no way to force the company to comply.

A deal could be easily structured to avoid any Scope obligation at all in the West language.

The East Language is much more concrete:
East language talks about asset transfers and sales not aircraft transfers only.
East language is binding on the successor with no “reasonable efforts” language.
East language does not require a complete merger, only a triggering event of 20%.
East language gives USAPA the right to re-enter section 6 or extend the contract.
East language does not depend on language regarding pre-merger operations integration.
East language gives CAR’s or contingent acquisition rights to the pilots.
East language has withstood several mergers and two bankruptcies and is still largely intact.

WEST SCOPE LANAGUAGE IS ESSENTIALLY NON-EXISTANT!!

RR

One Eastie has moved into the Bargaining stage.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Two more stages to go, you are moving forward.

 

[Keroseneuser]

You stepped on your own boyhood with Cleary's encouragement. You can't blame the west for your own stupidity.

I have actually never seen a group of people who do such predictably stupid things in all my life, at least not adults. Human adults.

Sorry you misunderstood my post to mean that I was upset that we wont have a joint contract. For me Doug would have to offer what he is currently paying for heavies on the narrowbodies before I broke even in a NIC vs seperate ops scenario. NIC will keep me off the heavies, stand alone will not. So any vote that may come up with NIC will have to meet that criteria before I can vote yes on it. I don't think Tempe will ever pay that kind of money. Especially given our current profit margins.

So far the two "victories" that the west is cheering the most about, Kasher, and the injunction damaged the west as much or maybe more than it did the east. Had we won LOA 93 the minimum rates in a new contract would have been that, for both east and west. Have you actually looked at what those were? Instead now Tempes starting point is LOA 93. Potentially we could have a new contract for nothing more than current west rates if NIC were not in the new contract. The east has enough votes to do that.

With NIC in the contract, the lack of a win in LOA 93, and the injunction all appears to add up to a barganing position that will not yeild enough muscle to get doug to lay out what it will require for a NIC to be passed. Which does not bother my position at all, I just bid the heavies for my raise, and the guys below me do the same in their positions, 190 to 73, and bus, reserve to line holder, f/o bus or 73 to 190 capt, f/o bus to f/o heavy etc etc.

This is movement we are seeing already on the march bid. It only increases from here on out. The mistake some west guys have made is the assumption that the east in such a shape to vote anything in with a NIC for a raise. That is not so, the east has paths to more money that do not include putting 1600 guys in front of them. Especially the bottom 1/3 of the east list. All they do is lose in a NIC situation unless Tempe pays BIG money, which they won't do. the airline does not make enough money to do that.

Right now with the wests current stance, the only path they have away from stagnation and their current rates is the east voting in a NIC...which is highly detrimental to 90% of the east.

 

[Barrister]

Sorry you misunderstood my post to mean that I was upset that we wont have a joint contract. For me Doug would have to offer what he is currently paying for heavies on the narrowbodies before I broke even in a NIC vs seperate ops scenario. NIC will keep me off the heavies, stand alone will not. So any vote that may come up with NIC will have to meet that criteria before I can vote yes on it. I don't think Tempe will ever pay that kind of money. Especially given our current profit margins.

So far the two "victories" that the west is cheering the most about, Kasher, and the injunction damaged the west as much or maybe more than it did the east. Had we won LOA 93 the minimum rates in a new contract would have been that, for both east and west. Have you actually looked at what those were? Instead now Tempes starting point is LOA 93. Potentially we could have a new contract for nothing more than current west rates if NIC were not in the new contract. The east has enough votes to do that.

With NIC in the contract, the lack of a win in LOA 93, and the injunction all appears to add up to a barganing position that will not yeild enough muscle to get doug to lay out what it will require for a NIC to be passed. Which does not bother my position at all, I just bid the heavies for my raise, and the guys below me do the same in their positions, 190 to 73, and bus, reserve to line holder, f/o bus or 73 to 190 capt, f/o bus to f/o heavy etc etc.

This is movement we are seeing already on the march bid. It only increases from here on out. The mistake some west guys have made is the assumption that the east in such a shape to vote anything in with a NIC for a raise. That is not so, the east has paths to more money that do not include putting 1600 guys in front of them. Especially the bottom 1/3 of the east list. All they do is lose in a NIC situation unless Tempe pays BIG money, which they won't do. the airline does not make enough money to do that.

Right now with the wests current stance, the only path they have away from stagnation and their current rates is the east voting in a NIC...which is highly detrimental to 90% of the east.

Don't confuse them with the facts. One has to examine were they are in relation to where they were. I get 48K in raises in a few months from non-airline sources (except PBGC). That puts me a little over 200K per. and yes....many easties hold second jobs and did so long before AWA came along.
We may not make exactly what the wesies make but close enough. Many Easties will be making more than they did in previous years. Those raises will be here but NIC will not.Please tell me how many westicles are getting SS money.....NO PBGC money ....and NOT moving to bigger equipment.
I say the East is doing fine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Plus all of the west squawking is from junior reserves.....SUCKS TO BE YOU.

ONE FINAL NOTE......THE ONLY TIME YOU WILL GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HAVING 17 YEARS AND BEING ON THE BOTTOM IS WHEN YOU HAVE 17 YEARS AND YOU ARE ON THE BOTTOM. If we merge with AA I will lobbY USAPA that furloughees get their DOH and when recalled they hold what their DOH gives them. Where will the bottom AWA guys be then....ON THE BOTTOM for 17 years and what will that buy you in the next merger ???

NICDOA
NPJB