1) Yep!
2) Yep!
3) Yep!
4) Yep!
5) Nope...that would be the usapa suporting, reneging on binding arbitration scumbags who hold that position!
US Pilots Labor Discussion
- Thread starter Richard
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1) Yep!
2) Yep!
3) Yep!
4) Yep!
5) Nope...that would be the usapa suporting, reneging on binding arbitration scumbags who hold that position!
"my "career expectation" never included working for usairways,...." Indeed. Should then, using even the slightest bit of logic, anyone proffer any "career expectations" with regards to American?
"...my future is much more tainted having encountered the likes of usapa supporters." It seems we all have our little crosses to bear 😉
1) Given that you've currently (unfortunately, as I wish that on no one) furloughed folks out west; Do they "bring a job"?
2) Shouldn't a "snapshot at the time of the merger" be used for integration?
3) Isn't "where you sit at the time of the merger" a determining factor?
4) Do you REALLY believe in all the BS used to argue for nic orignally?...or:
5) Is it always just to be "What's in it for MEEEeee RIGHT NOW?" with you people?
1) So....even though furloughed, not working/etc...your folks magically "bring a job" at the time of the merger?....Most amusing.
2) /3)A snapshot in time SHOULD be used. I see....Oh!...But you must mean not one based on any actual reality of where anyone sits, but of course, based on the nic? 😉
4) It seems VERY clear to me that you've just contradicted that by way of your answers for 1, 2 and 3) above.
5) Sure..if you say so 😉
Thanks for answering at all though. That's more than any others have done.
2) Shouldn't a "snapshot at the time of the merger" be used for integration?
3) Isn't "where you sit at the time of the merger" a determining factor?
4) Do you REALLY believe in all the BS used to argue for nic orignally?...or:
5) Is it always just to be "What's in it for MEEEeee RIGHT NOW?" with you people?
1) So....even though furloughed, not working/etc...your folks magically "bring a job" at the time of the merger?....Most amusing.
2) /3)A snapshot in time SHOULD be used. I see....Oh!...But you must mean not one based on any actual reality of where anyone sits, but of course, based on the nic? 😉
4) It seems VERY clear to me that you've just contradicted that by way of your answers for 1, 2 and 3) above.
5) Sure..if you say so 😉
Thanks for answering at all though. That's more than any others have done.
Metroyet
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Unbelievable these guys are just NOW figuring out how pathetic their fake union is.
cleardirect
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1. Yes they bring a job. If we had a joint contract they would be working. Using the accepted list they are senior to new hires. Unless you want to say that anyone junior to O'Dell would be furloughed too.
2. Yes a snap shot in time is the law. Read up on A/M.
3. Yes ir does. If you are a captain NB reserve or Len holder. That is where you sit. It you are a senior about to upgrade F/O that should be where you end up.
4.not BS. Facts. Do you believe all the BS you guys have been spouting? Furloughed pilots should get credit, WB pilots are better than NB pilots and should be senior. BK and company financials do not matter, your going to agree those things? I am sure that AA will love that.
5. Read the latest CLT, PHL update if you want to hear about what is in it for meeeee. They want their power back.
You are placing an unintended definition on the meaning of "career expectaion".
Did my "career expectation" have any idea I would work for a company (LCC) that uses the marketing name US Airways, when I never even so much as applied for a position at any corporation using the marketing name US Airways? Nope...so then what is my career expectation at LCC? I did apply for and get employment at AWA, the predecessor of AWHC that purchased USA Group out of bankruptcy in 2005.
The point is the name painted on the jet does not clearly define who owns the jet. Further, the guy/gal driving the jet likely had no idea what corporation would make their payroll 20 or 30 years after they took a job at....oh..lets say...Allegheny, Ozark, Piedmont, Braniff, PSA, TWA.
Get my point? If not I will spell it out for you. The whole AMR deal aside. "Career expectation" is the idea that when a merger occurs, you will be able to have the same job or equivalent pay and/or position within the new company as you did at the former company. In our AWHC/USA group merger, that is how Nic divided up the seniority. Just because LCC decided to use the USAirways brand name does not mean by any stretch of the imagination, that USAirways group survived the merger and I now work for your former company.
So, it works both ways. If I have no career expectation of working for a corporation that is the result of a merger between AMR and LCC, and lets call the new corporation ABC (dba American Airlines). Who exactly does have an "expectation" at ABC, and what would that "expectation" be?
fatherabraham
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Nic,
Glad to see you recognize the AA furloughed are of significance just as the AAA furloughed were at merger time Long long ago.
For I will in no way ever be persuaded that LOS is not the # 1 determining factor in SLI !
Sooo............factoring in all the contrived hypotheticals is utter BS and completely insane to unionism.
Happen to have a B. S. in Labour Relations and spent lot of hours studying concepts of unionism in relation to mgt.
Below a copy/paste from ASU:
Common terms and phrases
"AFL-CIO agency agreement arbitrator Arizona Education Association Arizona Public Employees bargaining for public bargaining table benefits bitrator Civil Service Collective Bar collective bargaining laws Compulsory Arbitration concern Confer Ordinance court decisions disputants Employee Organizations Federal government final offer selection functions funds graduated strike IBEW increased involved issues Labor Law Journal Labor-Management Relations Law Review Management by Objectives med-arb mediator Meet and Confer ment merit system Michael H mini Hatch Act Moskow Municipal parties Pima County PLEA ployees police officer political private sector productivity bargaining professional negotiations proposal Public Administration Public Employee Bargaining public employee unionism Public Employment Public Management Public Personnel Management public school Public Sector Bargaining Public Service rationale Relations Law representative role salaries Salt River Project school boards school districts school systems Sector Collective Bargaining student supervisors taxes tion tive University of Arizona wages welfare York City"
Mgt is well taught well to exploit our weaknesses !
In my world of " all people created equal " the furloughed are of keen importance to me and placing them under the bus wheels only diminishes ongoing strength of union and provides unwarranted amo to mgt.
YOUR financial arguments is perfect example of said Amunition . We're suckers to be caught up in the never ending money shuffle diologue of the financial community . WE are LABOR! Get it???
IMO , we ship tankers full of amo to DP regular.
FA
1) Ummm...OK...So "IF" we had a joint contract...they would be working. So, they're NOT actually working, but yet 'bring a job"?...OK. "IF" nic placed his "bet" at a different point in time, so would have a great number of east furloughed pilots be working. The hard facts are that your furloughed folks are NOT currently working. By all prior west "logic" supporting the nic, that means they count for nothing, and should be stapled below all active pilots. What's changed by way of "logic" or "principle" since then?
2) So...All should be blended in based on where they actually sit at merger time?....BUT...not really/just kidding about that if one uses the nic....I see 😉
3) OK...one of us is confused here. So...it IS where you actually sit then?, not where nic would place you?
4) "Furloughed pilots should get credit" = "BS"?...BUT...your furloughed pilots magically "bring a job"?...I'm a bit puzzled here again 😉 " BK and company financials do not matter, your going to agree those things? I am sure that AA will love that." I certainly would. I have no beliefs that any should be integrated based upon some blip in time and corporate circumstance. We clearly differ in our opinions on that. Doing such, to me, is entirely unethical and represents only rank opportunism. Vultures display remarkably similar "ethics".....
5) No argument with you there.
Thanks for answering.
I suppose my basic interest is in the existence of actual principles, or lack thereof within nic "logic". How is a "snapshot in time" taken years ago, so very "valid", while one to perhaps yet be taken "at the time of the merger" invalid? It seems clear to me that one either earnestly believes in a given methodology...or doesn't. Bottom Line = Why should the nic "snapshot" take precedence over one yet to be done with AA? Why is it that any who profess allegiance to "relative seniority" want to hang onto a list never actually employed as anything other than a source of fevered argument, versus one to be taken based upon real life circumstances? Either one has any actual principles regarding relative seniority...or doesn't.
1) Odell has been bypassing recall, and is therefore senior to "job holding" pilots. I am sure the AMR pilots would see it the same way for their pilots who are bypassing recall, which they do have.
2) No, I mean a snapshot or a PID taken when the merger is given the go ahead. And that snapshot will record where everyone sits, and who is working, and who is furloughed. Again, there is a huge difference between furloughed, and bypassing recall.
3) See #2 again.
4) No contradiction whatsoever.
5) I am not the only one to call usapa a bunch of liars, malcontents and overreaching idiots. Let see...we have federal judges Wake, Conrad, Silver, and I forget the names in the NY and RICO lawsuits, then we have the company Kirby, Johnson, Isom, then we have numerous east pilots who don't like being really deeply tied, then we have.... Seeham (that one cracks me up), oh and of course we have my fellow 1884 West pilots minus the 3 or 4 we hired from USAir pre-merger who are themselves reneging usapa scumbags.
fatherabraham
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CD,
As my long winded post explains above I absolutely / unequivocally believe YES they should return at next opening and recapture their past LOS wherever that places them on new SLI.
That said......assuming Nic remains dead and not weaseled into any new sli.
When I was a new hire I knew that went with the territory as I lived it with several SLI 's and none resulted in my personal leap frog!
FA
Firstly, all differences aside, thanks for the replies. I'm honestly trying to understand your folks' thinking here. Mutual sharp-stick poking seems well ingrained into us, and I'm not striving to enhance that more than "reflex" seems to almost mandate.
A huge difference in bypassing recall and being furloughed? Either one is on the property and working, or not. It can't be had both ways. To do so seemingly blows away the "bring a job" justification, at least in my opinion.
"when the merger is given the go ahead"? OK, why do you feel that to be a sufficiently significant point in time so as to pass over any other?
Per your 5)? I believe I can understand at least some of your feelings there, although I wasn't subject to the west side of things.....for what very little that's worth. I certainly don't see all "evil westies" as any such thing, and it does surprise me that you've painted with such a broad brush of late. No matter really, as we all have the right to our feelings and opinions. I've certainly provided an ample supply of "knee-jerk/all-inclusive" nonsense myself at times.
Must cut it short for now. Again, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Right up front let me say...My opinion is that every integration turns on its own merits. In our merger the merits dictated and rendered the Nic. End of story.
Now LOS is definitely a determining factor in all of this, but by no means should necessarily be #1. For instance, if tommorrow Delta outright bought Trans States just to aquire Compass, you think the 25+ year Trans States guys should instantly have the seniority to become A330 Delta Captains? If so, all I can say is the rest of the pilots in this industry think you are nuts. Well, maybe a small group of the hypothetical Trans States pilots would agree with you.
Nobody wants to throw furloughees under and buses. Bottom line there is you can't go and throw junior employed working pilots under the bus either, so which is it? It is what the arbitrator decides based on the merits and other extenuating circumstances of a merger.
Now back to the Nic. The east totally screwed the pooch. The demand from the east was not LOS, it was DOH. Nic told you point blank it would not be DOH, LCC told you point blank it would not be DOH, your own merger committee told you it would not be DOH. When did I miss the change to LOS? Was it when the east stripped the West of union representation and voted in usapa with a DOH mandate, or was it when usapa lost a DFR case based on their illegal DOH constitution?
The merits of our case demanded slotting by equiptment and status, that is what happened. Being educated in Labor, I can't see how you think forming a union to disenfranchise 40% of a group in an attempt to steal their positions and stutus has anything to do with unionism whatsoever.
Oh, and Nic did take into accout LOS.
fatherabraham
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Nic,
Thx for reply.
Ya see, that's where we differ.
Those merits are of by nature subjective attached to an infinite number of variables.
LOS is NOT subjective!
Leaving it up to anyone to play God and determine justice is foolhardy IMO .
Rest of your reply backed your stance but I obviously disagree on the merit premise.
Btw.....repeating the theft mantra is insulting and I personally have shown in writing my union beliefs. I will not engage over and over in the C&R past history.
FA
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I agree. The East pilots have been and continue to be foolhardy.
Foolhardy to charge the ALPA Merger Committee with a DOH or nothing mandate.
Foolhardy to press for DOH even when the arbitrator gave them a chance before rendering his award to back off DOH.
Foolhardy to create USAPA for the sole purpose of overturning binding arbitration, a process they agreed to.
Foolhardy to allow Mike Cleary to run amok for the past few years, in many cases unchecked by the same BPR that now is so upset about the incoming President's way of conducting business.
One poster suggested USAPA is so irrelevant even they won't be able to screw up a merger with American Airlines. Given the recent CLT/PHL update, I'm not so sure.
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