US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Ames]

This comment by Ames is what prompted the responses by myself and others regarding the support of the spouses of East pilot's. It was Ames who seems to think he knows all the internal family affairs of the Easties... You don't... and don't presume you do! Don't like those comments?... tough!

I KNOW that you don't get all the facts from usapa. I KNOW that people who have not read pertinent transcripts do not have all the facts and therefore are lying to themselves. I don't know, nor do I care about the internal family affairs of the easties. If you have the temerity to throw snarky comments around at least have the intelligence to know the facts. This is why I don't believe you are the "wives" of easties. You behave just like them. Where I come from wives have a totaly different approach, unless of course you're from "Stepford".

 

[Ames]

I know, I know, some people are of the opinion that circumstances never arise that are outside the scope of a previous agreement, because of course all potential contingencies are covered aforetime and there is never a circumstance that grown men have to readdress about what is equitable under new circumstances. Ostriches often have their head as the highest part of their anatomy.

For the circumstances you describe there is final and binding arbitration. Stop trying to imitate an Ostrich.

 

[Ames]

USAPA will surely counter with their own educational information and a betting person would probably lay odds that it will refute and counter everything AOL points out.

Of course they will, with spin and distortion of the facts. If usapa told you guys the sky was purple you would believe it.

 

[767jetz]

Guess what my husband didn't screw you or your family.

You must realize that this statement is nothing more than an opinion. As much as you believe your opinion to be true, the west feels that the east very much DID screw them, and continue to try to do it even more on a daily basis.

 

[LSS]

I KNOW that you don't get all the facts from usapa. I KNOW that people who have not read pertinent transcripts do not have all the facts and therefore are lying to themselves. I don't know, nor do I care about the internal family affairs of the easties. If you have the temerity to throw snarky comments around at least have the intelligence to know the facts. This is why I don't believe you are the "wives" of easties. You behave just like them. Where I come from wives have a totaly different approach, unless of course you're from "Stepford".

Ames... you're the one who is so fond of making "snarky" comments... and by the way... I have read the documents, transcripts and rulings... doesn't change my opinion, nor will any further "snarky" comments about me or others who don't happen to share your "opinion" erode our support for the East pilots... for the millionth time... THE COURTS WILL DECIDE!

 

[Bear96]

In the end after all is said and done...somebody is going to be right and somebody is going to be wrong and guess what you have no more of an idea who's going to be happy than I do. Now that is a fact!

Um, it was already decided who was right and who was wrong in arbitration.

 

[Bear96]

. . . for the millionth time... THE COURTS WILL DECIDE!

Serious question: What is it exactly you think the courts will be deciding?

 

[cleardirect]

Ames... you're the one who is so fond of making "snarky" comments... and by the way... I have read the documents, transcripts and rulings... doesn't change my opinion, nor will any further "snarky" comments about me or others who don't happen to share your "opinion" erode our support for the East pilots... for the millionth time... THE COURTS WILL DECIDE!

What will all of you east people do when the courts decide that you are wrong and final and binding really is final and binding. Than you all realize that this 6-7 years exercise was a waste of everyone's time and money?


What if the courts decide to dismiss and Doug Parker decides that his agreement was the Nicolau?

Are you all going to quit? Will you all say that you are sorry? Will you all kick and scream and say there has to be another court someone that will listen to you? Will you change unions again? Will you go running to the teamsters and hide behind their skirts? You will blame Seham? Will you blame anyone and everyone else except yourself?

 

[Pi brat]

What if the courts decide to dismiss and Doug Parker decides that his agreement was the Nicolau?

I then expect our union to negotiate a fair contract TA that includes the Nic award with the company and put it our for a vote when we will see the will of those that have a vote.

If it is voted down I fully expect to hear the full whine from those that have chosen to not have a vote.

 

[luvthe9]

Really? The TSA is involved with information coming to your house? The FAA is concerned about how much money east pilots are giving to the company everyday?

Can we expect another RICO suit? Oh that's right the first one went so well for Seham and the boys.

Perhaps Papa Johns is next on the hit list of information that you are afraid of and refuse to learn. You guys really do live on a different world.

Rather funny how one considers sensitive information culled from an airlines' flight crew data, which also directly relates to which flights they operate, to certain cities and countries at specific times can be construed to be casual information. Fortunately, the FAA and especially TSA considers this to be a lot more serious than you do on an airline labor forum. Rather interesting how Leonidas was stupid enough to enlist a company source, which I am sure is being investigated at this time, and use that sensitive information totally unedited. From what is available, the fact certain nicknames, and other clues made it rather easy to determine the source. Leonidas will be turning its' attention inward very shortly when the spotlight is turned directly in its' direction. Enjoy the show! Remember, keep the donations coming! Others will be needing certain legal protection shortly.........Did Jacobs get involved with this one too?

 

[LSS]

What will all of you east people do when the courts decide that you are wrong and final and binding really is final and binding. Than you all realize that this 6-7 years exercise was a waste of everyone's time and money?


What if the courts decide to dismiss and Doug Parker decides that his agreement was the Nicolau?

Are you all going to quit? Will you all say that you are sorry? Will you all kick and scream and say there has to be another court someone that will listen to you? Will you change unions again? Will you go running to the teamsters and hide behind their skirts? You will blame Seham? Will you blame anyone and everyone else except yourself?

And what if the courts decide otherwise... not to your liking... i.e., the company and USAPA are free to bargain any and all portions of the CBA?... How much whining will we hear from YOU!

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

What will all of you east people do when the courts decide that you are wrong and final and binding really is final and binding. Than you all realize that this 6-7 years exercise was a waste of everyone's time and money?


What if the courts decide to dismiss and Doug Parker decides that his agreement was the Nicolau?

Are you all going to quit? Will you all say that you are sorry? Will you all kick and scream and say there has to be another court someone that will listen to you? Will you change unions again? Will you go running to the teamsters and hide behind their skirts? You will blame Seham? Will you blame anyone and everyone else except yourself?

I am sure the good men and women of the East and West, once a determination is EVER made, will do what they always have done. Their job - professionally.

If they do decide to move on from US, they will have a definite reason as to their reasons why. They will also know that they participated in the process and did everything they could to protect their relative position in the "new" company.

The funny thing about relying on a third-party to decide your future - you got a 50-50 shot of being disappointed or elated.

If both parties had sat down and hammered out a realistic agreement without arbitration, no one would find themselves where they are now. It really doesn't matter what side of town you are on, with the arbitration it still would have played out the same.

Don't kid yourself otherwise.
The real question is: What if you won the lottery?

 

[luvthe9]

For the circumstances you describe there is final and binding arbitration. Stop trying to imitate an Ostrich.

Even ALPA itself came out and said this is an internal union affair in their MDA lawsuit discussion. Read the DFR part. Applies directly to the west(and not in the way you might want....) Keep insisting this is final and binding. It is neither. ALPA legal even references the seniority issue and the Nic as well as the 9th discussion of it. Judge Silver is paying close attention to this one. The Leonidas mailing is a last ditch effort to stem the big hit coming. Too bad they broke the law with their information "search" Keep the donations coming!

 

[Pi brat]

Here’s my take on the AOL pamphlet:

It is quality printed and easy to read.

After my first read I came to the conclusion that is aimed at the senior east pilots in hopes of getting them to join the west in forcing a contract vote with the Nicolau award in it prior to the conclusion of the legal battles.

Although the numbers were highlighted for the A330 captains, every single pilot at this company has lost big money over this fight.

Just as USAPA does, AOL uses select numbers and stats to highlight their point of view. For example:
1) It uses ALPA’s proposed pay rate for the computations, not the Kirby or even an average of the two.
2) It talks about the few number of captains that will be gained, but ignores those that have upgraded since Nicolau’s award and that even if they don’t lose their captain seats to west pilots that are senior to the on the Nic award and cannot hold a captain or wide body F/O bid, they would probably be stagnate at those positions for years.
3) They state “This calculation clearly shows that over 3400 US Airways pilots are being held hostage by USAPA so that 87 East pilots can upgrade into Captain seats they wouldn’t have had under separate operations or the Nicolau award”. Well, I don’t see anyone being held hostage. There are methods for overcoming what is going on with USAPA and I haven’t seen ANY effort to change the direction. The only real voice I hear are from those that have refuse to become MIGS and therefore have NO VOICE in the proceedings. The converse of this statement could be that the west pilots are holding 5000 pilots hostage over 87 Captain upgrades by fighting it relentlessly and prematurely in the courts, couldn’t it?
4) This statement is funny to me: “Under the Nicolau Award, the average East First Officer upgrade under attrition alone would be delayed by no more than 1.5 to 2 years while the average West First Officer upgrade would be delayed by 7 years under DOH”. Only 2 years after the 22 or so they have already been waiting? J They also don’t mention that the C&Rs would help those west F/Os, while the Nic has no C&Rs. Or that even though the west might be delayed, they are being delayed more now with the west’s legal fight. Or, that even though they slide on a DOH list, they will retire at a higher relative position, on a much larger list, with more opportunities than they would have on a west stand alone list-just not as much better as they would have under Nic.
5) They state that 100% of the west pilots lose with DOH. Define lose. With C&Rs with top west pilots would not have very senior east pilots coming on top of them in their base on the first bid.
6) They show how west pilots drop with a west only list to DOH, but don’t show how they gain form a west only list to Nic. Most east pilots had a slight gain in relative position on day one of the Nic, but have already dropped in relative position with east only vs. Nic and it gets worse every year we go on.
7) They say “This case us about the ability of ANY entity, including USAPA, to violate an arbitrated decision.” I thought the Addignton was failed for USAPA supposed failure to fairly represent the west pilots, not to uphold the sanctity of arbitration. Which is it?


So, the bottom-line for me is that I agree with the premise that this had turned out to be a tragic loss for all of us, I don’t agree with all of their conclusions. Our leaders have failed us at many turns along the way and I’m afraid we are on the straight stretch that doesn’t allow any options but that to let the courts decide the total winner. Even then we will all have lost.

Since we are on the road with no room to turn around or anymore forks in the road, I wish all sides would do what is necessary to quickly get to the end and let's get a contract put out for a vote.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Here’s my take on the AOL pamphlet:

3) They state “This calculation clearly shows that over 3400 US Airways pilots are being held hostage by USAPA so that 87 East pilots can upgrade into Captain seats they wouldn’t have had under separate operations or the Nicolau award”. Well, I don’t see anyone being held hostage. There are methods for overcoming what is going on with USAPA and I haven’t seen ANY effort to change the direction. The only real voice I hear are from those that have refuse to become MIGS and therefore have NO VOICE in the proceedings. The converse of this statement could be that the west pilots are holding 5000 pilots hostage over 87 Captain upgrades by fighting it relentlessly and prematurely in the courts, couldn’t it?

No, because Management has rebuffed every attempt USAPA has made to advance a DOH list. The west pilots have no control over Management actions and Management has steadfastly opposed USAPA's attempts to violate the TA. Even if Addington had never occured, there is no indication that Management would have or ever will accept DOH no matter how USAPA tries to repackage it's attempted illegal actions. So the converse, as you suggest, cannot be stated as the reason for the lost income for every pilot at US Airways. USAPA alone bears the blame for failed contract negotaitions and the harm suffered by all pilots to this point with no end in sight.