US Pilots Labor Discussion

[LSS]

Maybe not. I guess I am a little slow. Can you help me out:

Which pending action filed by USAPA has posed this question to a court?

(And ETA: What would the answer to that have to do with a seniority list agreed to by the two pilot groups?)

Duh... the company has filed the action... you seriously can't be that dense!

 

[Bear96]

Duh... the company has filed the action... you seriously can't be that dense!

The Company asked the court whether it has to bargain over the contents of a CBA?

(Again, remember I am pretty stupid, so bear with me.)

 

[N924PS]

Well there is a difference between healthy and unhealthy narcissism.

It's healthy to feel like you should be treated fairly and to stand up for yourself.

Unhealthy narcissism or what I'd look at as narcissistic entitlement is when one seeks to be seen as superior to others...an example may be feeling that they deserve to have much more seniority than someone with more time served at a company. Not willing to serve their time so to speak.

I think the West pilots have been doing an admirable job standing up for themselves.

What your husband, and now you, have failed to grasp is that seniority and longevity are not one in the same.

It took a West pilot LESS time to achieve the same relative seniority as your husband. Because your husband's career has languished at the hands of USairways post 9-11 shrinkage and lack of growth. And since there is no real growth in the future
the only upward movement will be from Age 65 attrition beginning in Dec 2012. Which he wants to keep exclusively for the East pilots.

Now he wants the West pilots to pay for his lack of advancement at USAirways with a DOH cramdown with some bogus conditions and restrictions . Talk about one who "seeks to be seen as superior to others."

I have said in previous posts that I don't agree completely with the Nicolau Award. I think he got it wrong from Dave O'Dell down. There should have been some kind of credit for "time served" as you like to say. But Nicolau decided if you didn't bring a job to the merger that was not to be. And two parties consented to binding arbitration, the operative word being binding.

The Leonidas brochure did get something right. This protracted battle has cost ALL USairways pilots a lot of money that will never be recovered. At the end of the day, I hope it was worth it to you and your household.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and Jim I'm interested in your take since you know some of the guys I'm talking about.

I can't quantify the number, outside of the obvious - the top few hundred are going to be senior no matter if it ends up being DOH or the Nic since they're above the West pilots whichever list is used. In theory, at least, everyone on the East side except the very senior has something to gain from DOH - the east pilot with 1 West pilot ahead of him/her on the Nic moves up 1 with DOH. For the bottom of the East list (excluding post-merger 3rd listers) DOH represents a tremendous gain.

I also have no idea if the many/most on the senior end of the East list are telling their reps to just get on with the business of getting a contract even if it includes the Nic but are being ignored, figure it won't make a difference so don't bother to contact their reps, telling their cohorts in crew room/cockpit conversation what those cohorts want to hear, or are as adament about DOH as some claim.

Claiming East solidarity is easy - I can claim that every other airline pilot in the world disagrees with the East position and anyone who tells an East pilot differently is just saying what the East pilot wants to hear. Proving it is something else. Short of USAPA negotiating the best contract it can outside of section 22, using the Nic and putting it out for a vote there is no proof. A vote would show how everyone (at least everyone that votes) really feels about the Nic. I do know some senior East pilots are tired of the whole mess and just want a contract, but you don't have to believe that.

Personally I think that's USAPA's greatest fear - they'll have to use the Nic and a contract will pass. At the very least, USAPA seems to be in no hurry to have a judge rule on the issue, yet most East pilots here claim that USAPA can't lose.

Jim

 

[No Land Green]

Did the number one HP pilot have the same "seniority" as the number 1 US pilot on September 26, 2005? If you say yes then you understand what the term seniority means. If you say no, then you are trying to use a different term altogether and trying to make it fit to serve your biased position.

What an interesting statement. I wonder what it would be like to merge with Republic, Virgin America or Jet Blue or all three.

The AWA CBA Section 22 states seniority is based on "Date of Hire". I "understand what the term seniority means". It's in plain english in the AWA CBA.

 

[hp_fa]

Perhaps Doug could have said that, but he’s intelligent and has enough business acumen to know that this whole situation is forging new legal pathways that have never really been trodden on before. There is simply no case like it in the history of labor law and Management is not going to foolishly predict that either NIC or DOH will be the system that survives all of the legal challenges. So, Management is doing the only thing any prudent and reasonable Management team would do – maintain the NIC as the accepted list until a final and definitive statement from the courts tells them otherwise. Therefore, this whole mess continues to lie at the feet of the despotic USAPA leadership who could resolve everything in the blink of an eye by saying “we accept the NIC.”

Robert Siegel, Esq. is also a smart man.

 

[No Land Green]

I can claim that every other airline pilot in the world disagrees with the East position and anyone who tells an East pilot differently is just saying what the East pilot wants to hear.

Jim

Really? I guess you haven't talked to "every other airline pilot in the world", your "claim" is not shared by "every other airline pilot in the world".

 

[CallawayGolf]

What an interesting statement. I wonder what it would be like to merge with Republic, Virgin America or Jet Blue or all three.

The AWA CBA Section 22 states seniority is based on "Date of Hire". I "understand what the term seniority means". It's in plain english in the AWA CBA.

Okay good. Now what does the Transition Agreement say about seniority?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Read the context - anyone can claim anything. Like the solidarity claimed to exist among the East pilots or what "every pilot in the world" thinks. Claiming that either is true is not the same as either actually being true.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, it's just like a crew meal, or so I have heard. 😱

I forget, were crew meals mentioned in the Transition Agreement?

I get crew meals. Including nuts, cheese/fruit plate, all served on on real dinnerware. Espresso, too.

How are yours?

 

[N924PS]

I get crew meals. Including nuts, cheese/fruit plate, all served on on real dinnerware. Espresso, too.

How are yours?

Yes. I can tell you've enjoyed your fair share of the transatlantic cuisine. And the beer on the layovers has affected your former streamlined airframe.

Once a 757, now a 767.

Oh, and ALL West pilots get First Class crew meals, not just the chosen fat cats that cross the big ocean.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Here's a question for you guys that know it all, and Jim I'm interested in your take since you know some of the guys I'm talking about. About the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the east seniority list is not really affected by the Nic award. Why are they not joining forces with the west and beating on the USAPA door everyday in CLT to force them into giving in on the Nic award? We've heard from several east posters on here that are in thouse positions and that have said why they feel that way, but I'm interested in the other side telling me why they think nobody rises up.

Most of the very senior east pilots, when scheduled to fly, tend to gather in the international crew rooms. The casual conversations that take place before/after flight planning seem to indicate a general consensus. There are exceptions to everything. But generally we feel that the pilots hired on the east in the later 1980s and early 1990s have taken it in the shorts so many times (and continue to do so,) and made huge sacrifices over the years (including furlough) to keep USAir(ways) alive (despite abysmal management) that we are not prepared to sit idly by and see them take yet another hit at the hands of a weak, ineffective, and self-serving union (ALPA.)

Imagine whatever you want, but unless you are privy to the conversation in the PHL and CLT international crew rooms (never saw a west pilot, or BoeingBoy, there....probably couldn't navigate the security door anyway) you have no idea what we are thinking and just how solidly behind USAPA and the f/os we really are. So, go ahead and weigh in on "what we want," and "how we feel." You have no idea of our resolve. Targeting the east senior pilots in the AOL mailing was little more than playing with yourselves. I'm sure it felt good. It gained nothing for the west.

 

[Pi brat]

Most of the very senior east pilots, when scheduled to fly, tend to gather in the international crew rooms. The casual conversations that take place before/after flight planning seem to indicate a general consensus. There are exceptions to everything. But generally we feel that the pilots hired on the east in the later 1980s and early 1990s have taken it in the shorts so many times (and continue to do so,) and made huge sacrifices over the years (including furlough) to keep USAir(ways) alive (despite abysmal management) that we are not prepared to sit idly by and see them take yet another hit at the hands of a weak, ineffective, and self-serving union (ALPA.)

Imagine whatever you want, but unless you are privy to the conversation in the PHL and CLT international crew rooms (never saw a west pilot, or BoeingBoy, there....probably couldn't navigate the security door anyway) you have no idea what we are thinking and just how solidly behind USAPA and the f/os we really are. So, go ahead and weigh in on "what we want," and "how we feel." You have no idea of our resolve. Targeting the east senior pilots in the AOL mailing was little more than playing with yourselves. I'm sure it felt good. It gained nothing for the west.

For most of us on the east it has not gone unnoticed and is appreciated.

 

[LSS]

For most of us on the east it has not gone unnoticed and is appreciated.

PI, we agree with NY's sentiments. Our resolve grows by every passing moment! We will continue to stand by you and the MDA guys... who IMHO have really taken it in the shorts (thanks to ALPA's nefarious endeavors!)... ALPA = cowards... with few exceptions!

 

[luvthe9]

PI, we agree with NY's sentiments. Our resolve grows by every passing moment! We will continue to stand by you and the MDA guys... who IMHO have really taken it in the shorts (thanks to ALPA's nefarious endeavors!)... ALPA = cowards... with few exceptions!

How true, and we will continue to support the junior guys, the westies just don't get it. It's all over for you, Ferguson has wasted your money and you have nothing to show for. But keep those donations coming, nice brochure though.