US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Did you get a say in Cleary filing a multi-million dollar law suit against the company? The BPR did not even get a say in that. Did you get a say in the latest NAC members? The BPR did not get a say in that decision either. Did you get a say or vote in how the profit sharing would be distributed?

As a matter of fact when was the last time you got a say or a vote in any decision usapa has made lately? Can you (blame that on usapa)?

Do you have any idea what Cleary does all week on your dues money? Does Cleary publish his weekly calender informing the people that are supposed to be in charge of this union (the pilots) what he has done for the pilots?

Are you not the least bit curious? As long as he says he is getting you DOH is that good enough for you. The other part about actually running a union and all that goes along with that. You don't care about?

Clear,

I know I can be a real smartaxx, but I'm going to try and say this sincerely. You shoot from the hip with out realizing who you are aiming at. All those things you are saying may be true, but they don't apply to Bob and what he was saying in your quote. Bob is one of the very top pilots in the company with just a few years to go. He got DOH no matter what. He is smart enough to know that unless they do away with the age 65 rule, he will most likely retire under the present contract. He was responding to 700's post about something that happened around 20 years ago. When you do this your posts lose relevance.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Bob was arguing that his union told him to stay home as he didn't have a say in the matter. It's a safe assumption that the decision to tell Bob and other pilots to stay home was the end result after a democratic decision made by the elected ALPA leadership.

Clear contrasts that situation with the present. USCABA replaced a democratic union and installed a dictator.

Finally, Bob obfuscates what 700UW was talking about. The issue isn't Bob and other pilots staying home DURING the strike, rather what pilots were doing LEADING UP to the strike.

 

[Pi brat]

Bob was arguing that his union told him to stay home as he didn't have a say in the matter. It's a safe assumption that the decision to tell Bob and other pilots to stay home was the end result after a democratic decision made by the elected ALPA leadership.

Clear contrasts that situation with the present. USCABA replaced a democratic union and installed a dictator.

Finally, Bob obfuscates what 700UW was talking about. The issue isn't Bob and other pilots staying home DURING the strike, rather what pilots were doing LEADING UP to the strike.

Bullshit. I can't believe the other AOL leaders and west pilots still listen to you.

First, you really need to drop the scab crap. If you want any east pilot to listen to you and sympathize with you, that's not the way to do it. I think you guys have been around so many scabs that you are desensitized to the term and thus really don't mind throwing around.

Next, everything that happens at USAPA doesn't have to have a comparison to ALPA. Around '94 the MEC traded most of our duty rigs for DL rigs and pay rates(no pilot ratification). Our current rates are lower than those, but the rigs didn't come back! So what? It's done, it has no relevance to today. The Berlin Wall fell and the sun came up today. So what?

Cleary is not a dictator. There are ways to remove him and have influence on him. He didn't want the Woodland address, but he got it. There is a recall ongoing and if the majority of US pilots that have bothered to be MIGS want him gone, he will be gone.

Finally, you are wrong about the strike and it's amazing that so many of you would run your mouths about something you know NOTHING about. 700 is talking about pilots cleaning airplanes during the strike. Let me assure you, with the tattle tell attitudes I see so prevalent out west, if you had witnessed that group in action, your bunch would have probably been coming in on your days off to do their jobs. 700 says that ALPA cut a sweetheart deal with the company that would allow those pilots on the airplane fleets that were parked to still get paid in exchange for not honoring the picket(I'm pretty sure he said that, he will correct me if I'm wrong). I don't know if they did. Possible, but my union told me that I could not refuse to cross the line, so I did and performed my PILOT duties as directed by the FOM.

 

[Pi brat]

Amazing, so old and so senior and you have to fly holidays and weekends?

Since he is #1 on the airplane I'm guessing it's "want", not "have", ya think?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Bullshit. I can't believe the other AOL leaders and west pilots still listen to you.

First, you really need to drop the scab crap. If you want any east pilot to listen to you and sympathize with you, that's not the way to do it. I think you guys have been around so many scabs that you are desensitized to the term and thus really don't mind throwing around.

Next, everything that happens at USAPA doesn't have to have a comparison to ALPA. Around '94 the MEC traded most of our duty rigs for DL rigs and pay rates. Our current rates are lower than those, but the rigs didn't come back! So what? It's done, it has no relevance to today. The Berlin Wall fell and the sun came up today. So what?

Cleary is not a dictator. There are ways to remove him and have influence on him. He didn't want the Woodland address, but he got it. There is a recall ongoing and if the majority of US pilots that have bothered to be MIGS want him gone, he will be gone.

Finally, you are wrong about the strike and it's amazing that so many of you would run your mouths about something you know NOTHING about. 700 is talking about pilots cleaning airplanes during the strike. Let me assure you, with the tattle tell attitudes I see so prevalent out west, if you had witnessed that group in action, your bunch would have probably been coming in on your days off to do their jobs. 700 says that ALPA cut a sweetheart deal with the company that would allow those pilots on the airplane fleets that were parked to still get paid in exchange for not honoring the picket(I'm pretty sure he said that, he will correct me if I'm wrong). I don't know if they did. Possible, but my union told me that I could not refuse to cross the line, so I did and performed my PILOT duties as directed by the FOM.

Good god. Is your IQ even in the triple digits? 700 said:

The East Pilots crossed the IAM Mechanic and Related picket line in 1992, I filed many a grievance during the 30 day cooling off period when pilots were cleaning thru flights as we were short handed, they cleaned planes during the strike and made a sweetheart deal with the company for all pilots to get paid during the strike if they crossed the picket line, the company grounded all the DC9s, MD80s, F28s, and 737-200s, yet all the pilots got paid.

I would think Jack London would agree you fit the definition of his poem.

What part of leading up to the strike do you not understand? Bob said he stayed home during the strike. Fine. That still leaves leading up to the strike.

Bullshit. I can't believe the other AOL leaders and west pilots still listen to you.

We've kicked you a$$

First, you really need to drop the scab crap. If you want any east pilot to listen to you and sympathize with you, that's not the way to do it. I think you guys have been around so many scabs that you are desensitized to the term and thus really don't mind throwing around.

Question: how many unions use union resources to repeated file frivolous lawsuits against its own members? None. USAPA is an illegitimate union and is therefore a scab union.

Next, everything that happens at USAPA doesn't have to have a comparison to ALPA.

Well that's obviious!

Around '94 the MEC traded most of our duty rigs for DL rigs and pay rates. Our current rates are lower than those, but the rigs didn't come back! So what? It's done, it has no relevance to today. The Berlin Wall fell and the sun came up today. So what?

Yes. So what?

Cleary is not a dictator.

Well that's an interesting take! Cleary is not a dictator? Nobody with two pennies of common sense will agree with you Reference Cleared Direct's post above.

There is a recall ongoing and if the majority of US pilots that have bothered to be MIGS want him gone, he will be gone.

Yes, and we'll see once again why the East is their own worst enemy.

Possible, but my union told me that I could not refuse to cross the line, so I did and performed my PILOT duties as directed by the FOM.

Knowing ALPA, that was the determination after a comprehensive legal analysis followed by a democratic vote among elected ALPA leadership concerning what guidance to provide to the membership. That's how a normal union operates, and it's clearly not what USCABA is.

And you're still missing the point (not surprising coming from you): 700 is talking about pilots cleaning planes. Of course that didn't come from ALPA and of course it's outside of the FOM, but 700 says it happened. And knowing your issues with integrity and honoring agreements, I'll take 700s word over yours any day.

 

[Phoenix]

...The issue isn't Bob and other pilots staying home DURING the strike, rather what pilots were doing LEADING UP to the strike.

700 accused pilots of being scabs, so it most certainly is about what those alleged pilots (whom 700 has never named) were doing during the strike that they allegedly scabed, and not any other time during which they would have, by definition, been unable to scab.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I've grown to expect tortured logic from your side.

Scabs undermine labor. Period. Cleaning planes during the critical 30 day period prior to a strike by cabin cleaners deserves the scab label. Just like training at CAL and Freedom makes those pilots scabs as well.

 

[Phoenix]

The East Pilots crossed the IAM Mechanic and Related picket line in 1992, I filed many a grievance during the 30 day cooling off period when pilots were cleaning thru flights as we were short handed, they cleaned planes during the strike and made a sweetheart deal with the company for all pilots to get paid during the strike if they crossed the picket line, the company grounded all the DC9s, MD80s, F28s, and 737-200s, yet all the pilots got paid.

I would think Jack London would agree you fit the definition of his poem.

The use of the term scab is likely to be viewed as cavalier and irresponsible if one uses it without pointing to a particular list of names that are afforded an opportunity to deny or defend themselves from such an accusation. After all, Jack London would have expect nothing less.

 

[fodase]

Since he is #1 on the airplane I'm guessing it's "want", not "have", ya think?

How sad then.

 

[700UW]

Bullshit. I can't believe the other AOL leaders and west pilots still listen to you.

First, you really need to drop the scab crap. If you want any east pilot to listen to you and sympathize with you, that's not the way to do it. I think you guys have been around so many scabs that you are desensitized to the term and thus really don't mind throwing around.

Next, everything that happens at USAPA doesn't have to have a comparison to ALPA. Around '94 the MEC traded most of our duty rigs for DL rigs and pay rates(no pilot ratification). Our current rates are lower than those, but the rigs didn't come back! So what? It's done, it has no relevance to today. The Berlin Wall fell and the sun came up today. So what?

Cleary is not a dictator. There are ways to remove him and have influence on him. He didn't want the Woodland address, but he got it. There is a recall ongoing and if the majority of US pilots that have bothered to be MIGS want him gone, he will be gone.

Finally, you are wrong about the strike and it's amazing that so many of you would run your mouths about something you know NOTHING about. 700 is talking about pilots cleaning airplanes during the strike. Let me assure you, with the tattle tell attitudes I see so prevalent out west, if you had witnessed that group in action, your bunch would have probably been coming in on your days off to do their jobs. 700 says that ALPA cut a sweetheart deal with the company that would allow those pilots on the airplane fleets that were parked to still get paid in exchange for not honoring the picket(I'm pretty sure he said that, he will correct me if I'm wrong). I don't know if they did. Possible, but my union told me that I could not refuse to cross the line, so I did and performed my PILOT duties as directed by the FOM.

Funny the AFA honored it and the company had to go to court to get them to work, it was sent to arbitration and the AFA won the right to honor a sanctioned picket line. And the company DID NOT have to pay any pilot due to a strike, yet pilots were paid not to fly go ask your former ALPA leadership about that one. And why did the pilots go whine to Seth about our "Thanks for nothing, ALPA" buttons after the strike?

 

[Phoenix]

I've grown to expect tortured logic from your side.

Scabs undermine labor. Period. Cleaning planes during the critical 30 day period prior to a strike by cabin cleaners deserves the scab label. Just like training at CAL and Freedom makes those pilots scabs as well.

By your definition, a passenger that carries out their own trash after a flight is undermining labor and causing furloughs. Be sure to tell your passengers not to be a scab during your next PA. Or a flight attendant who helps a traveler put a bag in the overhead is undermining labour because it isn't in the contract. Let the FA know they are a scab during your next crew breif.

Until 700 publishes a list of names and exact circumstances (which would make him liable if he is wrong) then he is just barking from behind the fence, and you are trying to peddle his koolaid because you like the flavor.

 

[700UW]

A passenger doesnt work for nor gets paid by US, you can yell from the highest mountain top, facts are facts, Labor Relations has copies of all the grievances, go ask Al Hemenway, you know he is now VP of Labor Relations and during the strike he was in Labor Relations.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there, does it still make a sound?

 

[Black Swan]

Funny the AFA honored it and the company had to go to court to get them to work, it was sent to arbitration and the AFA won the right to honor a sanctioned picket line. And the company DID NOT have to pay any pilot due to a strike, yet pilots were paid not to fly go ask your former ALPA leadership about that one. And why did the pilots go whine to Seth about our "Thanks for nothing, ALPA" buttons after the strike?

deleted. Why bother

 

[Pi brat]

Good god. Is your IQ even in the triple digits? 700 said:



What part of leading up to the strike do you not understand? Bob said he stayed home during the strike. Fine. That still leaves leading up to the strike.


We've kicked you a$$

Question: how many unions use union resources to repeated file frivolous lawsuits against its own members? None. USAPA is an illegitimate union and is therefore a scab union.

Well that's obviious!

Yes. So what?

Well that's an interesting take! Cleary is not a dictator? Nobody with two pennies of common sense will agree with you Reference Cleared Direct's post above.


Yes, and we'll see once again why the East is their own worst enemy.

Knowing ALPA, that was the determination after a comprehensive legal analysis followed by a democratic vote among elected ALPA leadership concerning what guidance to provide to the membership. That's how a normal union operates, and it's clearly not what USCABA is.

And you're still missing the point (not surprising coming from you): 700 is talking about pilots cleaning planes. Of course that didn't come from ALPA and of course it's outside of the FOM, but 700 says it happened. And knowing your issues with integrity and honoring agreements, I'll take 700s word over yours any day.

I will admit I was wrong about 700's post. I quickly scanned it as I'm sick of his whining and missed the 30 day cooling off period comment, but he has repeatedly said that we met scab criteria for crossing their picket line and performing STRUCK work during their strike. But, I stand by my statement that YOU weren't there, and you don't know what you are talking about with regards to what happened THEN. If you take 700's word over mine, that says a lot.If you think that "on board" is bad, you should have seen them in action.

So, you've kicked ass huh? How many west pilots are bidding east? When will that new joint contract be out? When do you think the next merger will happen with this big happy family/ I bet your furloughed pilots are eating up this ass kicking while we are hiring off the street. You are can't that all we have done is beat EACH OTHERS brains out while Paker laughs. You and a few other AOL leaders have always struck me as televangelist like. "I know you;re eating cat food granny, but keep sending the money and your will reap your rewards latter! In the mean time we will send you this genuine precious metal colored piece of plastic to keep you reminded of what the prize is."

So, since Cleary is a dictator I'm sure your at odds with EF over his opposition to his recall, right? Integrity and all that.

 

[aquagreen73s]

deleted. Why bother

Yup. I suppose it's a lot easier to just ignore and run away rather than present a factual rebuttal in the case where there are no facts supporting your case.