US Pilots Labor Discussion

[usabusdriver]

Why did the east push across the table rates that were less than what they were expecting with LOA 93 snapbacks?

Hey Toganoflex,

You are falling for D. Parker's and friend's line of BS.

Consider this.

The cost of a contract is not just what is contained in Section 3 Compensation. While I do not know exactly what the hell the NAC is going for in Section 3, I do know that if you take the rates if Kasher decides in the union's favor for "snapback wages" (not going to happen) with the costs of the rest of LOA 93 and contrast that with the rates being pushed across the table and factor in the rest of the costs of bringing LOA 93 to the west contract or better, ( 15% DC, more vacation, 5:15 daily, cancellation pay, ect) you will have, IMO, a similar cost structure. Parker's statement was complete and worthless political spin. Sounded good though right? Until you examine what he said. He has been caught before in making statements like this, he then prevaricates and starts to parse what he said.

D. Parker and friends are NOT the bastions of truthfulness. They have and will continue to screw the pilot group every chance they get. While our seniority food fight continues to swirl we cannot turn our backs on D. Parker and friends as they are our true enemy. Remember the ACARS logic change? Subtle, wasn't it? East gains a little, West loses a little. But now for joint contract negotiations the bar has moved. Instead of the old West logic we now have a new status quo to negotiate up to from what it should be, main cabin door closure as that is when are now responsible for all aspects of the flight and anything that may happen.

Just sayin.

 

[mrbreeze]

Hey Toganoflex,

You are falling for D. Parker's and friend's line of BS.

Consider this.

The cost of a contract is not just what is contained in Section 3 Compensation. While I do not know exactly what the hell the NAC is going for in Section 3, I do know that if you take the rates if Kasher decides in the union's favor for "snapback wages" (not going to happen) with the costs of the rest of LOA 93 and contrast that with the rates being pushed across the table and factor in the rest of the costs of bringing LOA 93 to the west contract or better, ( 15% DC, more vacation, 5:15 daily, cancellation pay, ect) you will have, IMO, a similar cost structure. Parker's statement was complete and worthless political spin. Sounded good though right? Until you examine what he said. He has been caught before in making statements like this, he then prevaricates and starts to parse what he said.

D. Parker and friends are NOT the bastions of truthfulness. They have and will continue to screw the pilot group every chance they get. While our seniority food fight continues to swirl we cannot turn our backs on D. Parker and friends as they are our true enemy. Remember the ACARS logic change? Subtle, wasn't it? East gains a little, West loses a little. But now for joint contract negotiations the bar has moved. Instead of the old West logic we now have a new status quo to negotiate up to from what it should be, main cabin door closure as that is when are now responsible for all aspects of the flight and anything that may happen.

Just sayin.

exactly right.

If Parker wanted to, he could be a leader and fix this mess....but instead, his own motivations cause him to drag this out as long as possible. File a DJ...sure, more money in his pocket.

I am sure there would be problems to iron out, but if he really wanted this stuuf straightened out he could come out and offer....say a contract that was 10 or 15% less than indusrty standard and reopen the seniority intrigration.....looking for something that would hit middle ground for East and West. But no, he sits and like a poker player, drags in the compensation that is much higher than any other CEO in this industry. Why would he want to fix things?

breeze

 

[Black Swan]

BS,

Seems we have had this discussion before.

Um, better check the date on LOA 93.

Signed 10/22/2004, NOT 5/1/2004.

5/1 is the annual pay increase date from LOA 84.

No one got their pay cut on 5/1/2004.

Sort of blows your logic above out of the water now doesn't it? :huh:


Dear Anthony wiener. I stand by the dates. The dates in the loa. Back into the gutter trash driver.
Is that better Crzipilot? ^_^

 

[end_of_alpa]

They who? usapa or teamsters?

I will assume that you are talking about usapa. How or why would usapa declare bankruptcy? They still have dues coming in every month. They would have to cut back on the legal costs and maybe cut out some if the FPL but it can be done. No reason to file BK.

Now if there is a big damages cost to the union there are a couple ways to pay that back. Give the west pilots a dues holiday for the next several years. Assess the east pilots. Adjust the contract so that some of the contract money is shifted to the west pilots. Maybe a b scale for east pilot until the damages are paid.

But declaring BK. Not likely.

However, dissolution of the union and reversion to employment at will will aleviate that problem. Not likely. Individual union members are not liable to the unions actions.

That is not the law. Dream on.

Talk about tilting at windmills.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

For a guy who claims to be a founding father of USAPA, you don't seem to grasp the idea of how a union represents pilots. Your airline at the dawn of time elected ALPA which was not a union that utilized referrendums on everything. When USAPA took control they assumed the "good" of agency shop provisions in each CBA (which codified their extortion) and the "bad" - the agreed upon seniority integration. Ironically, USAPA hasn't provided much to vote on (except allowing the east to vote on changing the Age 58 bypass provision in the west contract).

Just because the mob agrees with you, doesn't make it legally correct, as you'll all too soon find out. The only way out in the interim would be to put a T/A out for a vote with Nic (giving it full and unconditional support) and then have it rejected by the pilot group. After that, and sufficient polling that proves that Nic was the sole issue that prevented ratification) you might have sufficient grounds to present a DOH T/A and see if it passes.

But even then, probably not, as USAPA is so transparent in their choosing one side over another that they couldn't even make their support of the Nic T/A look credible.

But then again, the company may not want to re-open seniority if the T/A fails and force a lock-out, and the slim majority that it fails would be mirror of a woefully inadequate strike vote.

Cleary has proven his brilliance, he'll figure it out.


Right???

Don't quit your day job.

The grasp of how labor unions work really amazes me.

The will not be a CBA with NIC anytime soon....my guess....never.

The rest is, well, bloviating.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

But you were not talking about voting on a contract.


Yes your reps do bind you to agreements. You elected them to represent you.

Are you trying to say that I as a member am not bound to pay for or abide by the latest law suit the Cleary filed without a vote because I did not vote for that action? When the court force feeds thwe Nicolau to you east pilots are you claiming that it does not apply to you because you did not vote?

You have a misunderstanding of how things work. No one is or ever tried to take your vote for a contract. But when the BPR or now just the president makes a decision it does bind you and all members to that decision. With or without your vote. When was the last time you as a member got to vote for anything other than a rep with usapa?

Profit sharing?
Law suit?
C&R?
New law firm?
Calling for Morrell to be fired?
Location of the new office?

Do these not count because you did not vote?

The president binds the association to agreements that affect the association. Law suit, new law firm, location of new office, those are agreements made between them and the contracts they sign.

In fact they are empowered to negotiate for a contract on our behalf and they get to charge for that. However, any CBA you get is really only enforceable by you and your actions. The CBA when it's signed, protects us from the companys wishes, not the other way around.

You have a weird understanding of the law, which is typical of airline pilots in general. Ive always said there should be a two day ground school for union members. It really helps understand the operation.

I'm really tired of having to explain it to you again and again.

Keep blowing that smoke and, oh....

Good luck!

 

[cleardirect]

However, dissolution of the union and reversion to employment at will will aleviate that problem. Not likely. Individual union members are not liable to the unions actions.

That is not the law. Dream on.

Talk about tilting at windmills.

Good luck.

So the union that you say you helped start. The union that the east pilots have always wanted. One that you say you wanted to be in charge of but have allowed the Cleary to hijack. The union that said they could ignore arbitration and has cost all of us millions of dollars. Would dissolve and leave all of the US Airways pilots unprotected because a court finally told you that Seham and you and the rest of the east pilots were wrong. Nice, thanks a lot.

Cause damage and then run away. Real brave there boys way to honor your commitment. Typical answer from a group with no integrity or honor. I am sure that you would enjoy the rest of your career if you and the rest of the thefts stole these many years then slither out of the room after being wrong and taking everyone on the failed usapa experiment.

 

[prechilill]

Good morning JJ. Have a nice day and remember: things are never as bad as they may seem.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Good morning JJ. Have a nice day and remember: things are never as bad as they may seem.

Next time you're in Clt come visit 😀

 

[luvn737s]

You have a weird understanding of the law, which is typical of airline pilots in general. Ive always said there should be a two day ground school for union members. It really helps understand the operation.

I'm really tired of having to explain it to you again and again.

Keep blowing that smoke and, oh....

Good luck!

Please post a link to your Law School transcripts.

 

[luvn737s]

What if they file bankruptcy?

You mean pull a "Lorenzo"? Have they worshipped the man to the point that they have patterned their strategy after his?


Psst - It ultimately failed, but not before ruining thousands of lives

 

[luvn737s]

The grasp of how labor unions work really amazes me.

Perhaps if you had some experience contributing to a working union, you might have a deeper understanding. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I hope you read the Airbus manuals better than you read "Labor Relations For Dummies*"

 

[luvn737s]

Deleted

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So the union that you say you helped start. The union that the east pilots have always wanted. One that you say you wanted to be in charge of but have allowed the Cleary to hijack. The union that said they could ignore arbitration and has cost all of us millions of dollars. Would dissolve and leave all of the US Airways pilots unprotected because a court finally told you that Seham and you and the rest of the east pilots were wrong. Nice, thanks a lot.

Cause damage and then run away. Real brave there boys way to honor your commitment. Typical answer from a group with no integrity or honor. I am sure that you would enjoy the rest of your career if you and the rest of the thefts stole these many years then slither out of the room after being wrong and taking everyone on the failed usapa experiment.

Cleary has hijacked nothing, for someone that self proclaims as much as you do you sure do throw around a LOT OF SUBJECTIVE BS! Sorta like the AWAPPA, AOL, failed, (2mill and rising) Experiment, but hey it's your money! MM!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good morning JJ. Have a nice day and remember: things are never as bad as they may seem.

Thank you, and I'll certainly strive to remember what you've generously imparted upon me!

Good luck.