US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

CD,
I disagree with your assesment. I filled out my anwers and gave my opinion based on my experiences without any political influence from usapa. I had stopped filling out polls with alpa because the alpa questions were "Loaded" and would pretty much point you in one direction. A typical question on the alpa poll might be.....
Would you rather (a) have you eyes poked out with a burning stick or (B) have slivers of bamboo shoved underneath your fingernails or (C) have your entrails cut out with a teaspoon or (D) all of the above?


Regards,

Bob


please disregard the emoticon , don't know how that got there!

Really you thought it was without political influence? So the question is it safe to fly east and west crews together had nothing to do with politics but purely safety. You don't think that question had a loaded purpose and was meant to point you in a direction?

You gave your opinion so you agree that it was an opinion poll that you self selected into. The fact that east and west pilots had for the most part completely different opinion about the safety culture has no bearing in your opinion?

 

[luvn737s]

The extensive effort to amend a constitution that contains a DOH mandate is going to require the consent of the majority. Somehow some pilots believe that time is on their side. Tell me what if anything you can do to get the majority to see things your way?

A tangible physical presence in every crew base would appeal to the pilots (a plurality if not majority) who feel betrayed by USAPA's broken promises and ALPA's poor leadership.

It would not appeal to the radical fringe on both sides, but they have had their time on stage and haven't been able to accomplish anything. That radical fringe is responsible for wasting millions of dollars now and into the future.

It is time for those pilots who prefer progress over the quagmire to join the effort to replace USAPA.

In 5-10 years when the courts come back and say Nicolau needs to be used, we'll probably (ok, hopefully) be on our 3rd contract. You'll get your round of applause then, I promise.


But right now, there's work to be done.

 

[luvn737s]

I thought the company held quarterly safety meetings which USAPA declined to attend. Doesn't USAPA think that the company should communicate through the union, rather than directly with the pilots? If there is a process in place, why should USAPA complain about the company not participating in some unilateral survey that circumvents the process? It comes off as more temper tantrums.

I'm sick of paying for temper tantrums!

 

[767jetz]

USAPA was formed without west input and any attempts to reform USAPA would be viewed as "carpetbagging" and/or window dressing while ignoring endemic and structural problems. Has the keeping of the USAirways name taught us nothing? It sets unrealistic and artificial expectations of "control" and implies a grafting of a branch onto a trunk when the reality is that it is two branches grafted together and transplanted.

Marginalizing the West is a cornerstone of USAPA philosophy, yet I hear of so many folks looking to reform the union.

There is a time for the battered wife to acknowledge her efforts to "reform" the tyrant are in vain and file for divorce.

I have to agree with you on this. I know there are some who believe that keeping Cleary right where he is, is the best strategy, since it solidifies the case against USAPA in DFR II, and others think that reform will build unity. But the problem is that too much damage has been done. The fact that USAPA was formed (among other reasons) to avoid binding arbitration and take from the west to give to the east, would leave too much bad blood behind. Of course, as you allude to, I'm sure many would treat the west consistent with their usual MO and act like the west is being "added" to "THEIR" union. History repeats itself.

No one tried to "reform" the Nazi Party once Hitler was gone. Could you imagine any circumstance where German Jews would back a "reformed" Nazi Party? And before someone screams foul, I understand it is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

Changing the letter head is nothing but symbolic, since it would be the same group, representing the same group. (US)ALPA, USAPA, whatever. But it would be an important and necessary symbolic step, IMO. The problem pilots should be banned from office, and new blood injected. But replacing USAPA, even with another in-house union would be a fresh start.

All this being said, I don't see how reform, a new union, or whatever, changes the deadlock or the SLI issue. It is too far along in the courts. A new union inherits the mess regardless. Nic or not will be decided in the courts. The only thing I see as being a game changer is either the company's DJ being resolved with finality, or a Kasher decision going against the east and a large enough east contingent reaching out to the west to obtain a new majority to accept the Nic and expedite an improved contract.

 

[hp-csr-phx]

I have no idea about the gems, but from my experience I tend to believe them. Did you read the one that was attributed to a west pilot about the agents wanting to board the airplane with a mechanic laying in the doorway? Well, it may not be true but last year I had almost the EXACT same thing happen in PHX. The mechanic way laying in the aisle working on a cabin divider and the agent looked at him then asked us "Ready to board?" I said "No, you see that guy laying in the aisle?" and she replied "Yeah, but it's time to board". We didn't board.
[/quote]

If the mechanic doesn't call the tower to hold boarding, customer service gets blamed for the delay.

 

[end_of_alpa]

A tangible physical presence in every crew base would appeal to the pilots (a plurality if not majority) who feel betrayed by USAPA's broken promises and ALPA's poor leadership.

It would not appeal to the radical fringe on both sides, but they have had their time on stage and haven't been able to accomplish anything. That radical fringe is responsible for wasting millions of dollars now and into the future.

It is time for those pilots who prefer progress over the quagmire to join the effort to replace USAPA.

In 5-10 years when the courts come back and say Nicolau needs to be used, we'll probably (ok, hopefully) be on our 3rd contract. You'll get your round of applause then, I promise.


But right now, there's work to be done.

With all due respect, out west maybe you feel betrayed by USAPA and/or by east pilots. However the overwhelming majority of east pilots don't feel the way you do. The issue of broken promises/poor leadership is not really from either ALPA or USAPA. It is simply a result of the impression our pilots have given over the many years of compensation for the company's lack of planning and foresight. Were not the only company that has gone through this and we won't be the last.

Replacing USAPA won't do any good if and until you replace the pilots that go with it. Somehow the hope of a leadership savior heading USAPA or a prophet heading us airways has about the same odds as that of finding the holy grail....it doesn't exist.

You continue to opine that the nicolau list will be used. Personally, I believe that separate operations will have to suffice for the next five years at least. Whether nor not the west requests USAPA representation is up to the west. Whether or not the west volunteers pilots that can move beyond final and binding has yet to materialize.

But the inevitable question has to be asked (and we won't get a straight answer): if the courts fail to support your hypothesis about nicolau what will you do then? What can you do now?

And who is doing the heavy lifting, if anyone? Not I said the cat, not I said the dog....

 

[luvn737s]

All this being said, I don't see how reform, a new union, or whatever, changes the deadlock or the SLI issue. It is too far along in the courts. A new union inherits the mess regardless. Nic or not will be decided in the courts. The only thing I see as being a game changer is either the company's DJ being resolved with finality, or a Kasher decision going against the east and a large enough east contingent reaching out to the west to obtain a new majority to accept the Nic and expedite an improved contract.

No, a bipartisan group armed with the knowledge and experience of what hasn't worked and pledged not to repeat those mistakes, could congress to negotiate a new agreement that would satisfy both sides and incorporate it into a TA that would be fortified by both company sponsored sweeteners (anyone but USAPA would get their support) and an atmosphere of unity among everyone but the hardline fringe.

When the T/A passes (without an ever-shrinking cadre of USAPA supporters) there may be the slight risk of DFRII for failing to implement Nicolau verbatim, but the finanacial support for continuing the fight in order to claim the last couple crumbs would be tough to garner.

I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to predict what such a solution would look like, but I do know the process that would produce it wouldn't resemble anything that has been put together so far.

Both sides must learn from history this painful. Repeating it is not an option.

 

[aquagreen73s]

No, a bipartisan group armed with the knowledge and experience of what hasn't worked and pledged not to repeat those mistakes, could congress to negotiate a new agreement that would satisfy both sides and incorporate it into a TA that would be fortified by both company sponsored sweeteners (anyone but USAPA would get their support) and an atmosphere of unity among everyone but the hardline fringe.

In other words, proffer a non-Nicolau list to the company?

 

[end_of_alpa]

No, a bipartisan group armed with the knowledge and experience of what hasn't worked and pledged not to repeat those mistakes, could congress to negotiate a new agreement that would satisfy both sides and incorporate it into a TA that would be fortified by both company sponsored sweeteners (anyone but USAPA would get their support) and an atmosphere of unity among everyone but the hardline fringe.

When the T/A passes (without an ever-shrinking cadre of USAPA supporters) there may be the slight risk of DFRII for failing to implement Nicolau verbatim, but the finanacial support for continuing the fight in order to claim the last couple crumbs would be tough to garner.

I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to predict what such a solution would look like, but I do know the process that would produce it wouldn't resemble anything that has been put together so far.

Both sides must learn from history this painful. Repeating it is not an option.

I agree with Bob. It's too far along in the courts. It is best to let the language of the ninth circuit opinion stand on it's own merits and let USAPA and the company duke it out in Silvers courtroom. If the company wants to fire pilots in the form of it's own trivial pursuit game so be it....that's karma.

 

[cleardirect]

With all due respect, out west maybe you feel betrayed by USAPA and/or by east pilots. However the overwhelming majority of east pilots don't feel the way you do. The issue of broken promises/poor leadership is not really from either ALPA or USAPA. It is simply a result of the impression our pilots have given over the many years of compensation for the company's lack of planning and foresight. Were not the only company that has gone through this and we won't be the last.

Replacing USAPA won't do any good if and until you replace the pilots that go with it. Somehow the hope of a leadership savior heading USAPA or a prophet heading us airways has about the same odds as that of finding the holy grail....it doesn't exist.

You continue to opine that the nicolau list will be used. Personally, I believe that separate operations will have to suffice for the next five years at least. Whether nor not the west requests USAPA representation is up to the west. Whether or not the west volunteers pilots that can move beyond final and binding has yet to materialize.

But the inevitable question has to be asked (and we won't get a straight answer): if the courts fail to support your hypothesis about nicolau what will you do then? What can you do now?

And who is doing the heavy lifting, if anyone? Not I said the cat, not I said the dog....

But ALPA national was the problem so say the east pilots not the east pilots elected by east pilots. Now after reality is setting in do you realize that all along it was you the east pilots that have been and are the problem. So yes the broken promises came from east pilots and usapa promised to fix all of your evil. How is that working out so far? usapa is the union and the leaders that you east pilots wanted. It was conceived, created, C&BL written by and staffed by east pilots. But now you tell us that there is no savior among east pilots and we are going to have to wait until you trouble making east pilots are gone before we can truly fix this airline. Great so what was the point of changing unions in the first place?

I will reverse your question. What if the courts fail to support the Nicolau? How is usapa and you east pilots going to deal with west pilots for the next 15-20-25 years? Do you think that things will get better and as the east losses the majority do you not think that pay back is a ####? You young junior guys better hope that the west treats you better than the east is treating the west now. Because your buddies are going to abandon you and leave you holding and sack.

 

[Pi brat]

I have no idea about the gems, but from my experience I tend to believe them. Did you read the one that was attributed to a west pilot about the agents wanting to board the airplane with a mechanic laying in the doorway? Well, it may not be true but last year I had almost the EXACT same thing happen in PHX. The mechanic way laying in the aisle working on a cabin divider and the agent looked at him then asked us "Ready to board?" I said "No, you see that guy laying in the aisle?" and she replied "Yeah, but it's time to board". We didn't board.

If the mechanic doesn't call the tower to hold boarding, customer service gets blamed for the delay.

So in order to play dodge the delay you would board anyway and have them step over a mechanic? I'm sorry, that is just stupid. If someone is told not to board pax by a crew member, they shouldn't board them! If a supervisor doesn't like it they should investigate the reason. Like I told the agent that day, I said dont board, blame it on me, I will answer for it.

This is the kind of thing that has gotten out of hand around here.

 

[luvn737s]

I agree with Bob. It's too far along in the courts. It is best to let the language of the ninth circuit opinion stand on it's own merits and let USAPA and the company duke it out in Silvers courtroom. If the company wants to fire pilots in the form of it's own trivial pursuit game so be it....that's karma.

That simply delays the day of reckoning when a T/A is presented and defended and each pilot has to choose what is important to him or her. USAPA depends on that day never happening.

 

[end_of_alpa]

But ALPA national was the problem so say the east pilots not the east pilots elected by east pilots. Now after reality is setting in do you realize that all along it was you the east pilots that have been and are the problem. So yes the broken promises came from east pilots and usapa promised to fix all of your evil. How is that working out so far? usapa is the union and the leaders that you east pilots wanted. It was conceived, created, C&BL written by and staffed by east pilots. But now you tell us that there is no savior among east pilots and we are going to have to wait until you trouble making east pilots are gone before we can truly fix this airline. Great so what was the point of changing unions in the first place?

I will reverse your question. What if the courts fail to support the Nicolau? How is usapa and you east pilots going to deal with west pilots for the next 15-20-25 years? Do you think that things will get better and as the east losses the majority do you not think that pay back is a ####? You young junior guys better hope that the west treats you better than the east is treating the west now. Because your buddies are going to abandon you and leave you holding and sack.

So the answer would be to get rid of all the east pilots and unionism is perfect. In fact, that is not why ALPA is off the property. As has been said before and I will say to it again, ALPA could not overcome what was only going to be determined by us airways pilots. The ALPA promised solution was simply smoke and mirrors, they were interested in the loss of us airways short term for them would be pilots, but long term the survivability of the larger ALPA carriers, with the promise for both you and I to get preferential treatment on the ALPA hiring list for ALPA carriers at the bottom of there lists.

Would you have preferred that? Oh, and don't tell me AWA would have survived and grew, that too is just plain dreaming. AWA was toast right along with us.

The question is how your still going to deal with east pilots for 10 years and explain to new hires why DOH doesnt mean anything?

The court didn't support your merits claim in ADDINGTON I, they won't in II either.

There is no saviour anywhere but with the heavy-lifting from the rank and file. That was my point and that is still the point....one which you never get.

I for see separate ops for some time.

Good luck.

 

[Pi brat]

I thought the company held quarterly safety meetings which USAPA declined to attend. Doesn't USAPA think that the company should communicate through the union, rather than directly with the pilots? If there is a process in place, why should USAPA complain about the company not participating in some unilateral survey that circumvents the process? It comes off as more temper tantrums.

I'm sick of paying for temper tantrums!

I don't remember that. Parker has said that USAPA refuses to attend some type of a labor meeting. Why don't you find out if what you stated is true and get back to us.

 

[Pi brat]

Really you thought it was without political influence? So the question is it safe to fly east and west crews together had nothing to do with politics but purely safety. You don't think that question had a loaded purpose and was meant to point you in a direction?

You gave your opinion so you agree that it was an opinion poll that you self selected into. The fact that east and west pilots had for the most part completely different opinion about the safety culture has no bearing in your opinion?

Did I miss your answer? Did you participate in the survey?

Sure some east pilots may have been politically motivated when they did the survey. How about west pilots? Could any of them been politically motivated to not participate or answer the questions solely in a way that would counter USAPA?