US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

So the answer would be to get rid of all the east pilots and unionism is perfect. In fact, that is not why ALPA is off the property. As has been said before and I will say to it again, ALPA could not overcome what was only going to be determined by us airways pilots. The ALPA promised solution was simply smoke and mirrors, they were interested in the loss of us airways short term for them would be pilots, but long term the survivability of the larger ALPA carriers, with the promise for both you and I to get preferential treatment on the ALPA hiring list for ALPA carriers at the bottom of there lists.

Would you have preferred that? Oh, and don't tell me AWA would have survived and grew, that too is just plain dreaming. AWA was toast right along with us.

The question is how your still going to deal with east pilots for 10 years and explain to new hires why DOH doesnt mean anything?

The court didn't support your merits claim in ADDINGTON I, they won't in II either.

There is no saviour anywhere but with the heavy-lifting from the rank and file. That was my point and that is still the point....one which you never get.

I for see separate ops for some time.

Good luck.

Do you even read what you write? Try reading the T/A.

Going along with your DOH "gold standard" dream by definition a new hire is going to be junior to each and every west pilot. So what do they care if it is the Nicolau? they are still junior and the only way they are going to get a new contract with better work rules and a pay raise is a joint contract. So the new hires are going to be junior to west pilots. Why do I need to explain that to you?

Yes the district court did support Addington on the merits. It was dismissed on ripeness they never addressed the merits.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Going along with your DOH "gold standard" dream by definition a new hire is going to be junior to each and every west pilot. So what do they care if it is the Nicolau? they are still junior and the only way they are going to get a new contract with better work rules and a pay raise is a joint contract. So the new hires are going to be junior to west pilots.

Also consider the impact DOH would have on the third listers in the event of an AMR merger. Something like 2000 AMR pilots are on furlough and every one of them would be senior to LCCs third listers under DOH. I don't think it would take them but a millisecond to figure out that their interests are counter to others in USAPA.

 

[ManDachine]

Also consider the impact DOH would have on the third listers in the event of an AMR merger. Something like 2000 AMR pilots are on furlough and every one of them would be senior to LCCs third listers under DOH. I don't think it would take them but a millisecond to figure out that their interests are counter to others in USAPA.

Thats the #### to DOH isnt it.........Ill gladly take a seat to a guy at TWA who is senior to me.....now one who junior to me, that's another question.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Thats the #### to DOH isnt it.........Ill gladly take a seat to a guy at TWA who is senior to me.....now one who junior to me, that's another question.

Riiighht. Bring a job to a merger, and then donate it to a furloughed pilot. You'd support that if it were you bringing the job and then hitting the street. Riiighhtt.

 

[ManDachine]

Riiighht. Bring a job to a merger, and then donate it to a furloughed pilot. You'd support that if it were you bringing the job and then hitting the street. Riiighhtt.

Sorry Pal, Some of my buddys from TWA are senior to me and I would be fine to them getting there jobs back........thats the hole concept of DOH. A guy hire years before you should stay there no matter if furloughed or not! It's not my fault if a manager in crystal city or tempe cant run a company......us pilots need to stick together!

 

[Res Judicata]

Did I miss your answer? Did you participate in the survey?

Sure some east pilots may have been politically motivated when they did the survey. How about west pilots? Could any of them been politically motivated to not participate or answer the questions solely in a way that would counter USAPA?

Absolutely!!! That is precisely WHY that stupidnsurvey is not scientific in the least and would be more useful lining bird cages. It's meaningless drivel. The company knows that and usapa would have an impossible time proving otherwise. Ever wonder why usapa insisted on a confidentiality agreement from the company? It's because of the thousands of anti usapa comments made in the spaces provided. It was clearly a waste of time and money. I knew the second I saw that survey this is exactly where usapa was going.

They failed and now several pilots will be fired for listening to these maniacs.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Sorry Pal, Some of my buddys from TWA are senior to me and I would be fine to them getting there jobs back........thats the hole concept of DOH. A guy hire years before you should stay there no matter if furloughed or not! It's not my fault if a manager in crystal city or tempe cant run a company......us pilots need to stick together!

Total BS. You would allow yourself and your family to be exposed to losing your paycheck and health insurance for others you barely know or don't even know....TOTAL BS.

You aren't fooling anyone. Plus, it's clear you're not a third lister. You're probably a 99 hire who brought no job to this merger, who knows that supporting DOH is blind theft, and are now trying to pretend to be altruistic. Pathetic.

 

[ManDachine]

​

Total BS. You would allow yourself and your family to be exposed to losing your paycheck and health insurance for others you barely know or don't even know....TOTAL BS.

You aren't fooling anyone. Plus, it's clear you're not a third lister. You're probably a 99 hire who brought no job to this merger, who knows that supporting DOH is blind theft, and are now trying to pretend to be altruistic. Pathetic.

Thats why I enjoy speaking with good folks like you. You know your buddy that said he went to Northwestern? So did my wife, and guess what, even at my prime at this dump she would still be the bread winner, cause she has a PHD from there. Ill have to ask her if being a doctor has insurance or not, but I'm thinking Ill be just OK!

 

[767jetz]

No, a bipartisan group armed with the knowledge and experience of what hasn't worked and pledged not to repeat those mistakes, could congress to negotiate a new agreement that would satisfy both sides and incorporate it into a TA that would be fortified by both company sponsored sweeteners (anyone but USAPA would get their support) and an atmosphere of unity among everyone but the hardline fringe.

The problem I see with this is that there are several assumptions that may not be accurate. And I don't have the answer. But first I have to ask, is there such a thing as a bipartisan group among the east/west ranks? It may not exist. Then the part about an agreement that would satisfy both sides... probably just as elusive. The company sweeteners is a third variable that I doubt would be sweet enough. The only sugar they will most likely offer is an industry standard contract. There won't be anything like a viable early retirement program or pay over-ride.

And because of the legal gears that are well in motion, any non Nic SLI will bring along with it DFR II. The only way around that would be (as I believe you eluded to) something that is non-nic but so close to the nic that it's not worth the time and money to fight it.

 

[aquagreen73s]

​

Thats why I enjoy speaking with good folks like you. You know your buddy that said he went to Northwestern? So did my wife, and guess what, even at my prime at this dump she would still be the bread winner, cause she has a PHD from there. Ill have to ask her if being a doctor has insurance or not, but I'm thinking Ill be just OK!

Yeah but let me guess - it's in a social science. Big deal. I told my daughter who's fifteen and already proficient in C++ that getting a computer science degree from Cal State is better than any social science PhD anywhere. If you can't solve Schrodinger's wave equation, your utility in the real world is minimal.

 

[ManDachine]

Yeah but let me guess - it's in a social science. Big deal. I told my daughter who's fifteen and already proficient in C++ that getting a computer science degree from Cal State is better than any social science PhD anywhere. If you can't solve Scrodinger's equation, your utility in the real world is minimal.

You sound so cool with your name droping.....See im man enough to know that flying a plane and doing surgery are two different things. You daughter can call my wife for info when she goes to college. Even thou your a westie she as well as me would gladly give to proper guidance in life.

 

[luvn737s]

767jetz wrote:

But first I have to ask, is there such a thing as a bipartisan group among the east/west ranks? It may not exist.

I don't give the lunatic fringe that much credit. I think they are a highly vocal minority among a largely quiet majority that sees no viable alternative to USAPA

Then the part about an agreement that would satisfy both sides... probably just as elusive.

Both sides have the common interest of wanting to put this nightmare behind them. If it actually was producing significant gains for a great majority of pilots, then I'd say they want to stand pat (until a court finds that a DFR). The resolution has real value. Pride prevents the east from caving into the reality of Nic. The west knows that their leverage is limited and the timeline is set by the courts. They can find a solution practically equivalent to the Nic that has protections crafted from both sides and which provides a face saving exit strategy.

The company sweeteners is a third variable that I doubt would be sweet enough. The only sugar they will most likely offer is an industry standard contract. There won't be anything like a viable early retirement program or pay over-ride.

Again, I think there are many in the east who are seeing the promises of USAPA not worth the paper they're not printed on with the increasingly evident loss of LOA93 snapback. They know that USAPA can't produce anything better and likely not nearly as good as a new union that hasn't devoted themselves to sophomoric attempts to embarrass the company.

 

[mrbreeze]

Sorry Pal, Some of my buddys from TWA are senior to me and I would be fine to them getting there jobs back........thats the hole concept of DOH. A guy hire years before you should stay there no matter if furloughed or not! It's not my fault if a manager in crystal city or tempe cant run a company......us pilots need to stick together!

this is right on the money. ALPA National screwed up by not starting out with a national seniority list.....however, that doesn't mean we have to go down their "wishy-washy" path.

A national seniorty list would have kept all this BS from happening. The ethics behind it is what we need to follow.....otherwise, it's just a giant cluster fuk with people coming in claiming they have entitlement with each merger.

breeze

 

[ManDachine]

Aqua, Id love to wait for your enjoyable banter, but we have dinner res ( I guess im not so junior as you think, since im a blockholer off on the weekend) In spite of everything, have a good weekend.

 

[mrbreeze]

767jetz wrote:

Again, I think there are many in the east who are seeing the promises of USAPA not worth the paper they're not printed on with the increasingly evident loss of LOA93 snapback. They know that USAPA can't produce anything better and likely not nearly as good as a new union that hasn't devoted themselves to sophomoric attempts to embarrass the company.

this should be directed at luvin737s....

First of all, being an East pilot with many friends, I have talked to noone who is considering giving up on USAPA. Where did you get that info? ur ###?

Secondly, we shall hear Arbitrator Kasher's decision on LOA 93 somewhere around the end of August, in case you have missed the update. Noone has tucked tail and run as you suggest.

breeze