US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

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Seriously, think before you answer....

Can and or is judge Silver tasked with telling USAPA what seniority list to give APA if need be? Or is she tasked with determining what list the company should use in bargaining with USAPA to aviod a dfr?

What seniority list do you really believe will be given to APA from USAPA?

after the fact, when USAPA does not exist, who is Leonidas goin to sue for DFR?

Just a few unaswerd questions, i'd like to get cleared up for us all....

Seriously, think before you question....

Judge Silver is asked about the company's liability for negotiating a non-Nic list.

It is anybody's guess what list usapa would give the APA, it is however a certainty that if that list is not the Nic any further discussion would be terminated because the only accepted system seniority list at LCC is the Nic. Ask yourself this, where does usapa get the list of names of pilots who are employed at LCC? The obvious answere is they get it from LCC. So, exactly what list or lists does LCC have to offer? Basically, the Nic or two seperate east vs West lists. If they offer two seperate list, everything stops because LCC is in breach of the TA. So all that is left is the Nic. There is no usapa DOH list at LCC.

Remember when the seniority integration began you were asked to verify for ALPA your info, so they could certify a list? What do you think would happen if usapa offered an uncertified list they contrive on their own to the APA and an arbitration panel?

After the fact when usapa no longer exist AOL sues nobody, because nobody is going to play usapa's game. The APA and LCC won't touch usapa's job theft scheme with a ten foot pole, because they are all aware that of who inherits the contracts of a predecessor union.


does that clear it up or do you have more questions,,, like ,,,what does binding arbitration mean???? or can a union fail its DFR because the majority wants to steal from a minority within the union???

 

[Zone5]

And 3 of your 6 bases are closed.

They are not east routes they are US Airways routes. if we had 1/3 of the 190 flying like we're supposed to instead of the east stealing it the west would not have furloughed pilots. If the east pilots had the integrity to abide by binding arbitration.

You are talking about career expectations AFTER the merger. What was your career expectations WITHOUT this merger. I will leave out the insults see if you can do the same.

Now I'm really confused.

"They are not east routes they are US Airways routes. if we had 1/3 of the 190 flying like we're supposed to instead of the east stealing it the west would not have furloughed pilots." Can any pilot furloughed from the West, not take recall to the 190? Actually, even some "new hires" are going straight to the little bus, are they not?

You need to start living in "today's" world, not the past one.


seajay

 

[nevergiveup]

Scoff as you like, but unlike you I have the integrity to accept the arbitration decision, come what may.

Next time, read the fine print related to the decision. IV a.

 

[Barrister]

And 3 of your 6 bases are closed.

They are not east routes they are US Airways routes. if we had 1/3 of the 190 flying like we're supposed to instead of the east stealing it the west would not have furloughed pilots. If the east pilots had the integrity to abide by binding arbitration.

You are talking about career expectations AFTER the merger. What was your career expectations WITHOUT this merger. I will leave out the insults see if you can do the same.

You add nothing new....you have no solutions......you whine like a new born....and complain about what you are entitiled to. Something handed to you on a silver platter. There is no solution.Both airlines were a piece of crap which together makes an even bigger piece of crap. But it does survive. And it survives for one reason only...the value that the East coast flying brings. Remember someone can be destitute one minute and hit the lottery the next......JUST LIKE YOU.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[exB717Flyer]

Next time, read the fine print related to the decision. IV a.

What is it with you guys, can't you just state your point in English so people can know what you're talking about without playing Twenty Questions?

 

[cleardirect]

You add nothing new....you have no solutions......you whine like a new born....and complain about what you are entitiled to. Something handed to you on a silver platter. There is no solution.Both airlines were a piece of crap which together makes an even bigger piece of crap. But it does survive. And it survives for one reason only...the value that the East coast flying brings. Remember someone can be destitute one minute and hit the lottery the next......JUST LIKE YOU.

NICDOA
NPJB

Pot meet kettle. Talk about whining and what you think you are entitled to.

"I want my attrition. I want my left seat seat. I want my DOH." whaaaaaaaaa.

If your east coast airline were all that why we're you in BK twice and about to close the doors? It is you east pilots that hit the lottery by merging with AWA. Parker should have let you go under.

Man I guess my C&R really got you guys pissed. Looks a little different when you turn them around don't they? Hey you guys say you just want to keep what you brought. My C&R do that. You fly whatever you flew prior to the merger in the bases you flew them in.

Post merger. All new flying goes to the west. All new planes go to the west. You keep your 1700 furloughs. All new hires go to the west. Your keep your loa 93 wages. The west gets a new contract. All new hires go to the west.

You get DOH and keep what you had. What is your problem? Not the lottery ticket you demand?

 

[cleardirect]

Now I'm really confused.

"They are not east routes they are US Airways routes. if we had 1/3 of the 190 flying like we're supposed to instead of the east stealing it the west would not have furloughed pilots." Can any pilot furloughed from the West, not take recall to the 190? Actually, even some "new hires" are going straight to the little bus, are they not?

You need to start living in "today's" world, not the past one.


seajay

My point is that if the west was flying the 190 like we are supposed to there would be no west furloughs and there would be fewer new hires on the east. If those airplanes were on the west our pilots would not have to fly under your crappy loa 93 and your east coast bases with your east pilots.

Today's world is usapa is losing every legal battle. Today's world is we will probably merge with AA and the incompetent usapa
Leadership is going to screw it up again. Just because you east pilots have trashed your career fighting each other and every losing battle that comes along I don't want you guys to do it to me again.

Past present and future east pilots have no clue how to run a union or negotiate and can be counted on to make the wrong decisions.

 

[Zone5]

My point is that if the west was flying the 190 like we are supposed to there would be no west furloughs and there would be fewer new hires on the east. If those airplanes were on the west our pilots would not have to fly under your crappy loa 93 and your east coast bases with your east pilots.

Today's world is usapa is losing every legal battle. Today's world is we will probably merge with AA and the incompetent usapa
Leadership is going to screw it up again. Just because you east pilots have trashed your career fighting each other and every losing battle that comes along I don't want you guys to do it to me again.

Past present and future east pilots have no clue how to run a union or negotiate and can be counted on to make the wrong decisions.

First of all, "Team Tempe" decides where the 190's will fly, if more money could be made basing them in PHX, that's where they would be and any East pilots flying them would have to commute to PHX to do so. There is no "West" pay rate for the 190. If "Dougie" wanted to fly the 190 based out of PHX, you can bet your ass you would be paid the "East" rate, unless he was willing to pay the West more money to fly them, out of the goodness of his heart, not very likely.

Secondly, even if they were based out of PHX, the decision to fly them or not (due to the low pay) would be the furloughed West pilots to make, just as it is today, the West pilots on furlough are there because they choose to be.

We all have choices to make. I choose not to be a block-holding 190 Captain instead of a 767 F/O, why?, the money is about the same, I just "choose" not to work that hard.

Like I said; you said, we said, they said, woulda, coulda, shoulda, USAPA, UCRAPA, USLessAir, AOL, this lawyer, that lawyer, this judge, that judge; hitch your wagon to whatever you want, choose from the menu on the table or go to another restaurant.


seajay

 

[EastUS1]

Been hitting the schnapps this evening? If you have a point it's drowned in your scorn and bitterness.

My having a number at AA is irrelevant. If by chance we merge with AA I support our seniority being decided by binding arbitration, come what may. Can you say that same? Heck, even if you did I wouldn't believe you.

Umm.. let me see if I have this right, and please do correct any mistaken assumptions:

1) You're furloughed from AA, want the nic used, but, in the event of a merger; you'll cheerfully use whichever of the AA or US seniority numbers that favors you most.
2) An essential core belief among supporters of the nic is that those furloughed count for nothing, and should stapled to the bottom of any combined list. I'll go out an a limb here, and assume that you don't believe that all currently furloughed west people should be stapled to the bottom of any combined list with AA, nor even those furloughed from AA..at least, most very certainly not yourself.
3) Your "career expectations" when coming to AWA hardly included any merger with US, much less AA. So much for "career expectations"...
4) You will, however, "nobly" accept binding arbitration, ummm...or your AA number, whichever favors you the most. In that last case...oh well...screw those former compadres at AWA.
5) As a nic supporter, you're of course a person of perfect "integrity" and therefore, by no means a mere opportunist that will seek out the very best results for himself...umm...OK

One has to just lean back and laugh. Such "interesting" characters couldn't be believably conceived for use in children's comic books.....hmmm..well...maybe "Integrity Man!...capable of leaping over tall buildings, the backs of others, and any/all obstacles provided by logic!"..."Spins around all corners at the speed of light!"/etc

PS: As but a poor pilgrim, desperately striving for yet only dreamed of achievement of the full, personal perfection of morality known to exist only among nic supporters. Umm....knowing myself to be entirely unworthy, it'd still be great to get one of those "Integrity Matters" T shirts, if you have a spare 😉

 

[Move2CLT]

First of all, "Team Tempe" decides where the 190's will fly, if more money could be made basing them in PHX, that's where they would be and any East pilots flying them would have to commute to PHX to do so. There is no "West" pay rate for the 190. If "Dougie" wanted to fly the 190 based out of PHX, you can bet your ass you would be paid the "East" rate, unless he was willing to pay the West more money to fly them, out of the goodness of his heart, not very likely.

Do you easties not put ANY effort into research at all?!?! Man, this really gets old having to stay on top of you guys.

Zone, crack open the TA for the first time and go to Attachment D for the east AND WEST rates. I'll help you with part in case its too much of an effort.

The following terms apply to operation of the EMB 190 aircraft:

1. EMB 190 aircraft will be operated only by US Airways, America West, both carriers, or the Single Carrier.
2. EMB 190 aircraft will be operated under the respective operating air carrier’s collective bargaining agreement as modified by this Letter of Agreement.
3. EMB 190 aircraft will be operated under the rates of pay and longevity scale set forth in Attachment D to this Letter of Agreement.

Secondly, even if they were based out of PHX, the decision to fly them or not (due to the low pay) would be the furloughed West pilots to make, just as it is today, the West pilots on furlough are there because they choose to be.

Furloughed west pilots are here because they also do not want to work under a BANKRUPTCY contract on the east.

 

[exB717Flyer]

1) You're furloughed from AA, want the nic used, but, in the event of a merger; you'll cheerfully use whichever of the AA or US seniority numbers that favors you most.

"Cheerful" isn't the appropriate word. Which number I get won't be up to me. I'm just presuming the better one will be assigned, just like Nicolau did with the furloughed Easties flying for AWA.

2) An essential core belief among west supporters of the nic is that those furloughed count for nothing, and should stapled to the bottom of any combined list.

Not all furloughed pilots count for nothing in all mergers. If USAir happened to be recalling pilots at the time of the merger that would've meant a different career expectation. And as it so happens, I deferred recall at AA last autumn. Whether that makes any difference is up to the arbitrator(s).

I'll go out an a limb here, and assume that you don't believe that all currently furloughed west people should be stapled to the bottom of any combined list with AA, nor even those furloughed from AA..at least, most very certainly not yourself.

Correct, but what I believe is irrelevant. It's not up to me.

3) Your "career expectations" when coming to AWA hardly included any merger with US, much less AA. So much for "career expectations"...

I've noticed many pilots alter the definition of "career expectations" to match their personal wishes. Instead I see them as pretty objective: What equipment an airline operates, firm aircraft delivery dates, and contractual pay and benefits. No need to guess about what the future holds, the numbers are there for all to see. George Nicolau espoused the same interpretation.

4) You will, however, "nobly" accept binding arbitration, or your AA number, whichever favors you the most.

Like I said, I won't be up to me. But yes, I'll accept it. And BTW, I'm not the only one. Around 20 of us now.

5) As a nic supporter, you're of course a person of perfect "integrity" and therefore, by no means a mere opportunist that will seek out the very best results for himself...

Correct! Finally you're beginning to understand.

 

[Move2CLT]

Umm.. let me see if I have this right, and please do correct any mistaken assumptions:

1) You're furloughed from AA, want the nic used, but, in the event of a merger; you'll cheerfully use whichever of the AA or US seniority numbers that favors you most.

Save it Capt Verbosity. You'd cheerfully do the same and no one here knock those guys for that.

2) An essential core belief among supporters of the nic is that those furloughed count for nothing, and should stapled to the bottom of any combined list. I'll go out an a limb here, and assume that you don't believe that all currently furloughed west people should be stapled to the bottom of any combined list with AA, nor even those furloughed from AA..at least, most very certainly not yourself.

You do understand that when one is furloughed, he/she no longer is employed with the company, right? So no, they count AFTER all active pilots are taken care of on the list.

Tell me East, does a pilot who was active his first year and furloughed for 5 years sit higher on your list than a never furloughed 3 year pilot?

3) Your "career expectations" when coming to AWA hardly included any merger with US, much less AA. So much for "career expectations"...

And do your "career expectations" sans this merger include a career at all? Second bankruptcy and an all or nothing merge say no for you.

4) You will, however, "nobly" accept binding arbitration, ummm...or your AA number, whichever favors you the most. In that last case...oh well...screw those former compadres at AWA.

I don't know why you're bothered by this on our behalf. No one out here is bothered by the choice he may or, most likely, may not have to make. The neg/arb should negate any reason for him to have to choose at all.

5) As a nic supporter, you're of course a person of perfect "integrity" and therefore, by no means a mere opportunist that will seek out the very best results for himself...umm...OK

Once again, hypocrisy at its acme!! You guys are doing it with your DOH cram down, aren't you? The courts have ruled in our favor on the merit of this case at every point! Put it together with regard to integrity. You'll find you're on the short end.

 

[Move2CLT]

You know I'm getting real tired of you. I bet you would never tell him that in person.

Harry

I have and will tell that to anyone in person.

And I'm getting really tired of you. You're 66, have no skin in this game, and yet you continue to chime in with your nonsense.

Go fishing or golfing.

 

[EastUS1]

Not all furloughed pilots count for nothing in all mergers.

I've noticed many pilots alter the definition of "career expectations" to match their personal wishes.

"I've noticed many pilots alter the definition of "career expectations" to match their personal wishes." I've noticed that too.....

Per the rest?...I'm still quite comfortable with: "Spins around all corners at the speed of light!"/etc

 

[Move2CLT]

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Seriously, think before you answer....

Can and or is judge Silver tasked with telling USAPA what seniority list to give APA if need be? Or is she tasked with determining what list the company should use in bargaining with USAPA to aviod a dfr?

If you go back on this thread and make a little effort, you'll find on numerous posts what exactly is going to happen. But please, allow me so as you not get hurt using the search function.

Silver cannot and will not tell anyone which list to use. The company is merely seeking guidance as to what the legal implications will be should they stray away front the nic.

The company is not ignorant as to the repercussions of using something other than the Nic. What the seek from Silver is legal cover. If, with her opinion, she does not completely remove the company's legal jeopardy, the company with stay on the legal safe course and stay with the Nic.

With that, should USAPA attempt to seek a cooling off period based on a seniority list impasse, the company can avoid the strike with the legal jeopardy excuse.

So, ironically, no decision by Silver is still a decision for the company. The other two possible, but HIGHLY UNLIKELY outcomes are: use the Nic and no legal jeopardy.

What seniority list do you really believe will be given to APA from USAPA?

The APA will only accept the Nic.

after the fact, when USAPA does not exist, who is Leonidas goin to sue for DFR?

Just a few unaswerd questions, i'd like to get cleared up for us all....

Our lawyers have already had extensive discussions with the APA. The APA knows where AoL stands with regard to the Nic being used in the next integration. But, hypothetically, the APA would be sued because, with USAPA being gone the APA assumes the duties of CBA for both pilot groups and inherits all previous agreements.