US Pilots Labor Thread 1/13-1/20

[cleardirect]

Well, Jimmy, if keeping someone out of the left for 7 years isnt a violation of seniority and federal law, I dont know what is. But for the Westies, if our "no-upgrade after 59 1/2" and there "no upgrade after 58" was allowed to stay, theyd get the next 2,000 or so upgrades. Easy to see why their whipped up over this and blaming usapa. snooper.

Part of our contract is a two year seat lock. I believe the company figures training somewhere around $60,000 per event. It is cheaper to pay the rate difference then the lost productivity and training.


Snoop,

Again a bit dramatic I would say. Since we only started out with 1800 pilots. We are now down to around 1650. Of those only about 800 F/O’s. Explain how the west would get the next 2000 upgrades?

Is it the money or the ego? If the company is going to pay an F/O to sit in the right seat. With the corresponding bidding power and captain rate. Where is the harm? If it has taken most of a career to gain enough bidding power to sit in the left seat the last couple of years of a career.

Would you rather sit reserve as a captain or bid a great schedule and get the captain paycheck? Here it is 77 hours for reserve or up to 99 per month as a line holder.

Personally my ego is not that big. I got into this business to fly airplanes and make money. If sitting in the right seat with a good schedule and higher pay does that great. Sitting in the left seat on reserve the last years of career does not sound like fun.

So what is it money or ego?

 

[luvn737s]

Well, Jimmy, if keeping someone out of the left for 7 years isnt a violation of seniority and federal law, I dont know what is. But for the Westies, if our "no-upgrade after 59 1/2" and there "no upgrade after 58" was allowed to stay, theyd get the next 2,000 or so upgrades. Easy to see why their whipped up over this and blaming usapa. snooper.

Pssst, Snoop. They wouldn't be kept out for 7 years. The contract would be negotiated for something of equal or better value. That's how you negotiate when you have leverage. You don't give things away. Is Bradford aware of this tactic?

No USAPA supporter has yet come out with an explanation of what USAPA recieved in exchange for gutting an important piece of leverage with the company. Which leads to the question: why would anyone (east or west) want to support an organization that is either so ignorant or vindictive that they would be willing to give this away? It's like some kid who tears up his parents car on which he never had to make a payment. Easy come-easy go. Is that USAPA's new slogan?

Snoop, how many lawsuits were filed by folks who were being paid CA pay and able to bid top of the F/O list?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, Jimmy

Well Meggie, who are you worried about - the F/O that wants the more senior F/O out of the way or the F/O getting the Capt pay without having to take that award. Seems like you're just fishing for reasons to be anti-Westie.

A violation of seniority and federal law? You gotta be kidding. Otherwise, I'll expect you to be just as opposed to the East pay-no train, pay protect if trained out of seniority, etc. Maybe if you approached the union, they'd give those up also.

It was a bargaining chip, and now the union has one less.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

Well, Jimmy, if keeping someone out of the left for 7 years isnt a violation of seniority and federal law, I dont know what is.

Seniority is not in "federal law."

 

[Tiger 1050]

Seems like you're just fishing for reasons to be anti-Westie.

Clearly we can once again see Snoopdog's anger!

 

[cleardirect]

Has anyone spoken to the crew of Cactus 1549? How are they holding up under the media scrutiny?

It appears that they did an outstanding job of bringing a crippled plane back to the ground safely. All of the praise to the crew and the first responders.

 

[Phoenix]

...No matter how meticulously a labor contract with USAirways is crafted, the company always seems to come up with novel interpretations. ..

Aint it so.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear a grievance was necessary in order to obtain toilet paper... else there was insufficient paper for both the latrine and personal printed copies of the contract.

 

[luvthe9]

East took high ground in pilot-union squabble
Editorial by Joe Monda - Jan. 17, 2009 12:00 AM


There are two sides to every story, and this is especially true of the recent Arizona Republic guest column ("AmWest pilots get short end of straw," Opinions, Jan. 6) by 1st Officer Patrick O'Neill concerning US Airways and America West pilot seniority integration.

First and foremost, no West pilot has lost a job to a laid-off (or active) East pilot. US Airways operates as two separate airlines. During the fuel crunch, management reduced more flights in the West because of unprofitable routes, and although the new union's seniority integration proposal would not permit East pilots to take West jobs, Mr. O'Neill proposes that West pilots take East jobs.

At the time of the merger, AmWest was on the brink of its third bankruptcy, and its ATSB (Air Transportation Stabilization Board) loan was due. CEO Doug Parker told employees that West bankruptcy plans included a minimum of 15 percent employee reductions.

US Airways, already in bankruptcy, had raised approximately $500 million for its exit. The strength of the US Airways franchise was validated in the six postmerger quarterly filings when management separated East and West data: East profits were $633 million; West were $11 million.

As for removing the old union, Mr. O'Neill failed to mention that West pilots had previously attempted to remove the same Union (Air Line Pilots Association) that the combined US Airways pilot group recently decertified.

The East-West seniority integration deadlock was the straw that broke the camel's back - ALPA was gone.

East-West pilot relations had further deteriorated as the chairman of the old AmWest pilot union approached management and stated, "West pilots would be outraged" if management paid East pilots equally.

Imagine your union brother preventing equal pay for equal work!

Considering the following facts, one can see why East pilots would not vote for the collective bargaining agreement: 1) Newly hired West pilots being placed ahead of 17-year East pilots who were never laid off and 2) the direct transfer of 2,373 East captain years flying premium-coveted transoceanic routes, to which West pilots had no access.

Imagine a veteran 21-year 1st officer seeing his captain opportunity go to a pilot 17 years his junior after giving up 60 percent of his pay and his entire pension to keep his company viable.

Every union-represented employee group at US Airways used the time-proven union standard "date of hire" to merge employees. The new pilot union used date of hire, but unlike other unions, used potent conditions and restrictions to protect the jobs, pay and working conditions that West pilots brought to the merger.

While Mr. O'Neill speaks of moral bankruptcy, his sole intent is to advance his career at the expense of his senior pilots from the East and take their current positions.

The East pilots remain on the moral high ground and, through the new union, will protect the seniority of all pilots, both East and West.


US Airways East 1st Officer Joe Monda served four years at Eastern Airlines and 21 years at US Airways.

GREAT LETTER, HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[cleardirect]

I saw this posted on the usapa site.

What purpose does it serve to post it? The article is inaccurate in it’s facts. It continues to divide the pilot groups.

We had a short break from the war because of the LGA accident. What is usapa trying to do? This does not build unity to a better contract or standing together against management. Seniority will be settled in court very soon.

Is it USAPA’s intention to continue to throw punches at the west until they are removed from the property? I am just baffled why usapa insists on perpetuating old disproved arguments. The west offered an olive branch during this time. Usapa choose to pick up that stick and prove again that they have no intention on representing the west or finding common ground.

 

[Bus Driver]

Kinda nice to see business as usual.

You'd THINK, but apparently be wrong that the pilot group would rally 'round one of it's own.

Piney,

It is business as usual . . .

The west pilots continue to press and pursue a strategy to gain career slots at the expense of East pilots.

The seniority game is a zero sum game. For one pilot to gain a slot, someone else must move lower, there are a "set" number of slots.

The author of the editorial is Joe Monda, the last active "East" pilot at the time of the merger, never furloughed, but placed next to Dave "save Dave" Odell on the Nicolau proposal, who was the last active pilot on the AWA pre-merger list at merger time with just 2 months of seniority with the company, compared to Joe's 17 years of active service.

The USAPA update also included the editorial from Partick O'Neill published in the same newspaper on January 6, 2009. I believe that the response from Joe Monda was in the works and probably submitted prior to the LGA incident on January 15. The USAPA update to the pilots provided both editorials, in their entirety.

Bus Driver

 

[Bus Driver]

Kinda nice to see business as usual.

You'd THINK, but apparently be wrong that the pilot group would rally 'round one of it's own.

Piney,

one more thought . . .

When Flt 1549 Captain Sully retires, according to the Nicolau list, his Captain seat is available to a west F/O hired in 1999, instead of being available to Flt 1549 F/O Jeff Skiles, hired in 1986.

Like I said in my previous post, it is a zero sum game. There are limited number of slots.

The problem with the Nicolau award, and the posts of the west pilots here, is that they fail to understand the concept of seniority, the zero sum game of seniority, and the importance of seniority and longevity to the east pilot group.

It has been documented that there are thousands of "Captain years" that are transfered from the older east group to the younger west group. Once this transfer takes place, the east pilots will retire before the younger west pilots do, thus this "placement" or "award" of Captain positions is permanent for the west pilots, at the expense of the east pilots who BROUGHT these jobs to the merger.

Another thing that the west pilots will not acknowledge, is that if a Date of hire list is used, the east pilots will retire at a faster rate, and the west pilots will "inherit" these prize Captain slots as time goes on. Also, the Date of Hire list proposed by USAPA protects the west jobs with strict conditions and restrictions.

Think of it like this, the west pilots will get the slots anyway with this important point . . .

1. With Nicolau, the west pilots get the slots, and many (most) of the east pilots (who brought these jobs to the merger) will never get the chance to upgrade. The east pilots will suffer for the rest of their careers behind younger pilots and will never have the bidding power for upgrades, vacation and monthly bidding. It is permanent.

2. With Date of hire, the east pilots get the jobs, then when they retire, the west pilots get the jobs after all, because they are the younger group.

The West pilots have embarked on a "burn the house down" strategy with their refusal to join the union, and their lawsuits and destructive behavior.

This is why you see the rhetoric here from the west guys, they want their lottery ticket cashed, they want the east Captain jobs. The want the east wide-body jobs, both Capt and F/O, jobs they never had before the merger. They understand that if they get these jobs, it will be permanent, for the rest of their careers, and no east pilot will be able to displace them under the Nicolau lottery ticket.

Bus Driver

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Bus Driver,

Stale words, worn out argument which conveniently omits significant facts, Piney doesn't care.

 

[Bus Driver]

Bus Driver,

Stale words, worn out argument which conveniently omits significant facts, Piney doesn't care.

Dear NLC,

With all due respect (actually, I am trying to be polite, as I really don't have much respect for your previous posts here . . )

The words are not stale for the east pilots, and their careers, and their many years of experience and seniority they bring to this company every day.

It is not a worn out argument, it is relevent for the east pilots.

Go ahead and post what YOU think are "significant" facts. Until you do, you are nothing but a bag of hot air flamebaiting with no credibility and nothing to contribute.

Are you married to Piney? Is that why you can speak for him?

Geez . . .

Grow up.

Bus Driver

 

[Metroyet]

The AZ republic "article" was just more of the predictable same.

Lies, warped facts, and blame, BLAME, BLAME!!!!

Also, Nicalau didn't deliver a "proposal" he delivered his "award...aka RULING"

Only Seham thinks this is a proposal. That's why he's failed you at every legal turn.

See you all once again, in court.

 

[luvn737s]

F/O Skiles (and F/O Monda for that matter) had at least some say over the course of their careers in the circumstances that landed them at their respective positions on the USAirways East seniority list. Dave O'Dell and all the other west pilots are not responsible for those circumstances and should not pe penalized for them in the new USAirways system seniority list. There is not one rational reason that a pilot on the bottom of the east list should be catapulted to the middle of a combined list. What skews Dave O'Dells movement is the recall of furloughees which makes it appear that O'Dell is capturing something he is not entitled to.

The average age of either side is irrelevant as to the fairness of integrating a list.

USAPA knows that it's foot dragging is the defacto implementation of a DOH list and they (through their former alter-ego the AAA MEC) proposed a solution of permanent separate operations which was rejected.

Now USAPA has begun decimating the west contract, burning the west furniture to stay warm, because they are unable to negotiate a contract of their own. Someone needs to quickly educate USAPA on how to achieve parity - because this isn't it!

USAPA tells it's followers to watch actions rather than listen to words and this is good advice, especially for holding the USAPA "leadership" accountable. After seeing what they did to the west's contract provision (allowing those pilots age 58 and higher who are able to hold CA to be paid CA pay, but remain the most senior F/O's for bidding, vacation, etc. until FAA mandated retirement age, - and without any solicitation of pilot opinion CHANGE IT TO 63) does anyone (east or west) trust them to negotiate on their behalf?

Remember SUAPA's trumpeting transparency and being built from the line pilot up? Why were all the line pilots in the west summarily ignored, regardless of membership status? Why not prove your motives are pure by at least soliciting and actively listening to ALL pilot's concerns? Was it too much trouble to poll the west pilots before gutting their contract? What's next? Elimination of pay for deadheads? Reduced vacation? Can anyone blame a west pilot for being reluctant to participate in the Waterboard Welcome to USAPA membership?

Watch what they do, not what they say. Yeah, I'd say that's good advice.