US Pilots Labor Thread 3/18-3/25-MUST READ FIRST POST

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

While we appreciate the passionate feelings on both sides of the pilot labor issue at US Airways, the rules of the board must still be observed. You may comment all you want on the issues and material in posts, but you may NOT make derogatory comments, insults or remarks about other POSTERS or GROUPS, and you may not resort to name calling of any kind.

While most of you have really made an effort regarding this type of posting, some of you continue to disregard and post the same old names and personal attacks. Continued posting of this nature will not be tolerated.

As stated earlier, ANY posts found in violation of the rules as expressed above, regardless of length, will be deleted without comment. We will no longer edit the offending remarks out, the entire posts will be deleted.

PLEASE OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD AND KEEP IT CIVIL.

Thank you!

 

[cubfan]

So, how about we start off with a poll: How many of you Eastside bretheren believe that Nicolau was "paid off" by ALPA?

Here's a little help to get it started:

1. Usapa Dues Collection Chairman.
2.
3.
4.


This apparently is the latest delusional eastie excuse to hit the streets.

I think he was a bit off, but not paid off.........

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

I think he was a bit off, but not paid off.........

I couldn't agree more - the top 517 on his list should not have been given the free pass they received.

Meanwhile, don't you think it a bit off kilter that a usapa committee chairman is verbalizing such nonsense on phone calls being made to "collection targets" on the west? What does this say about usapa's committee member vetting process - if there is such a thing.

If Mr. Nicolau and/or ALPA should find out about such slander coming from a union official, don't you think there could be repercussions? Serious legal repercussions?

 

[Captain Underpants]

The West seniority proposal to Nicolau was to place 935 active East pilots below the bottom West pilot. The bottom West pilot is now furloughed due to the poor economic performance of the West operation with little hope of recall. The bottom West pilot brings no job to the pilot integration. The West proposal instead of his current furloughed position would have had him now at 50% relative position on the East list holding an Airbus Captain position ahead of East Captains with over 23 years seniority. The Nicolau award has the bottom West pilot above 735 active East pilots placing him equal to East widebody F/O’s . The West seniority proposal to Nicolau was so extreme it could only have resulted in unintended adverse consequences such as the collapse of ALPA and failed pilot integration.

80% of the original East pilots will reach mandatory retirement age (or have already retired) within the next 13 years. USAirways has 37 widebody aircraft on order including 15 A330 and 22 A350. These aircraft if delivered to replace 37 smaller aircraft would bring over 900 NB to WB upgrade positions. Without pilot integration the thousands of East pilot attrition openings and East based widebody upgrades will all be filled by East pilots and East new hire pilots.

The worst case scenario for the West pilots would be to win a DFR ruling in the Arizona lawsuit. A DFR ruling would by law require the return of the West pilots to the position prior to the alleged breach which is back to the ALPA gridlock. None of the parties including the Judge, USAPA, USAirways or the NMB has the authority to unilaterally negotiate or force a joint contract containing the Nicolau award. USAPA will negotiate a contract that is acceptable including a fair and equitable seniority integration that can be ratified by the USAPA pilots in good standing regardless of how long it may take. It makes little difference to the East pilots whether there is a joint contract with DOH and conditions and restrictions or continued separate contracts with no pilot integration.

The best case scenario for the West pilots is to lose the Arizona DFR case which would clear the way for a fair and equitable seniority integration and contract improvements for all pilots. It would allow the West pilots to integrate and obtain more than their fair share of East attrition openings and widebody upgrades and for the East pilots to share the pain of the economic collapse of PHX and LAS.

The law in this case clearly favors USAPA although a successful outcome for USAPA does require a thorough understanding of the law and the negative consequences for all pilots of an incorrect finding of a DFR violation. The primary risk for the West pilots is no pilot integration which provides the East attrition inheritance and East wide body upgrades exclusively to East pilots and East new hire pilots building to the rate of over 300 positions per year as mandatory retirements resume. No pilot integration also exposes the West pilots to 100% of the risk of West base economic contraction. Any seniority integration method including straight date of hire even without conditions and restrictions would be ultimately better for the West pilots than separate operations locked into the declining AWA route network with little attrition. USAPA has proposed a solution that facilitates pilot integration enhancing seniority gains and providing contract gains for all pilots. The USAPA proposal like the ALPA Nicolau proposal is negotiable.

The ALPA path which required separate joint contract ratification votes made using either a modified or unmodified Nicolau award impossible to ratify and guaranteeing permanent separate operations which would be the most damaging to the West pilots of any seniority proposal. The law clearly allows USAPA to deviate from the ALPA process as long as the action is not arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith. This means USAPA’s action must have reason, not violate civil rights laws, and must have been done to benefit the pilot group as a whole and not only for the purpose of advantaging one group at the expense of the other. The law allows unions a wide range of reasonableness in determining policy and judging fairness. USAPA knew in advance they would be sued by the West pilots and created a solution to comply with the law.

The USAPA proposal obviously benefits the East pilots but also not so obviously benefits the west pilots as well. USAPA had a duty and obligation to all pilots to extricate the pilot group from the ALPA induced gridlock which exposed the West pilots to the imploding West operation and cost the pilot group as a whole at least $120 million per year of contract gains. The West pilots never had any contractual guarantee to implement the Nicolau list, only a pledge from ALPA to try to defend the award. ALPA realized it would be impossible to ever implement the Nicolau award unmodified and established formal negotiations to compromise the award. The evidence is overwhelming that the West pilots never had any chance of implementing the Nicolau list unmodified under the contractual agreements in place.

Any change to the Nicolau award is effectively discarding it as it would no longer be the original document signed by Nicolau. Modifying the Nic award to fair and equitable under ALPA policy or USAPA policy gets to exactly the same end result which is DOH with conditions and restrictions or its equivalent. The difference is USAPA gets there faster sparing the West pilots years of separate operations and lost career opportunities that would be gained through a timely fair and equitable pilot integration.

Having sat on a jury for a liability trial I can say for sure the outcome of jury trials is quite unpredictable. The jury room is much like this board with each juror bringing his own bias and opinion based on his own life experiences, personality and intellect. They will all hear the same testimony but they will all hear it differently and will vote based mainly on which side they want to win. The outcome is almost completely dependent on which 12 jurors are picked much like if you picked 12 pilots at random from this board to decide the case. The burden of proof is by law on the Plaintiffs and the jury must find at least 51% probability of liability with a supermajority of 3/4ths or 2/3rds for a guilty verdict depending on the court rules.

The jury will decide if USAPA’s actions were necessary, reasonable, and fair to all pilots. Although very unlikely USAPA could be required to return to the ALPA status quo and hopeless gridlock by a finding of a DFR violation by the jury and the court issuing the injunction that the West attorneys have requested. A DFR loss for USAPA would make little difference to the East pilots but would be devastating to the careers of the West pilots.

underpants......... off to the Riviera Maya for some diving and R&R

 

[cubfan]

I couldn't agree more - the top 517 on his list should not have been given the free pass they received.

Meanwhile, don't you think it a bit off kilter that a usapa committee chairman is verbalizing such nonsense on phone calls being made to "collection targets" on the west? What does this say about usapa's committee member vetting process - if there is such a thing.

If Mr. Nicolau and/or ALPA should find out about such slander coming from a union official, don't you think there could be repercussions? Serious legal repercussions?

I agree the 517 should have not been given a free pass, but in saying that, the same would have to hold true for the pilots furloughed. Maybe not DOH, but given some consideration for their time. I also feel fences could have been built to protect all. Now for the rest, thats the first I've heard of that, as far as slander, I don't feel they really care.

 

[cleardirect]

Underpants,

Right! Did you come up with this all on your own or was this some crew room collaboration?

You just go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that way. Amazing that you have somehow convinced yourself that DOH is good for the west.

Wow! It really is going to be an extremely hard fall for you. Enjoy your R&R. After the little dramas that you just built it may be your last happy thought for a long time. Maybe you should have waited until mid May for the vacation.

 

[nic4us]

Captain Underpants,

Man that was a long post! I follow your logic, however, it makes many false assumptions of what would happen.

First, in separate operations, the TA that allowed the West to hire east furloughs also allows the recall of West to east prior to hiring off the street. So any growth or attrition on the east would first be filled by furloughed West pilots, and my guess is they will be coming with their Nicolau seniority.

Second, you are assuming the company will take delivery of all widebodies to the east. Maybe not.

Third, you predict the only possible outcome of a favorable verdict for the West, claiming it would lock us in gridlock of the ALPA status quo. Um....I think the West is seeking a little more than that, and I can think of numerous decisions by the judge that would be more favorable than your story of dire career stagnation. How bout this one, USAPA is found responsible for its violations, and the judge orders refund of all dues collected from West, and gives the West a free pass on any future dues collection until a joint contract containing Nicolau is implemented. I do not think that is above the realm of reasonable from a federal judge who does not like people who try to evade their contracts. In that award, I never have to pay dues and I get the attrition you mention.

 

[hp_fa]

The law in this case clearly favors USAPA ...

I can almost agree with what you are saying, however the facts in this case, in my opinion, do not support USAPA. As noted by an outside observer it is "rare" for a DFR case to survive a Motion to Dismiss. ( Link ) I also hold the opinion that the judge has become upset at the tactics of USAPA's attorneys. The tone of the Judge Wakes orders, rulings and comments leave me no other viable view of how he views the tactics and the facts.

... does require a thorough understanding of the law ...

Well, at least a healthy knowledge of law is most beneficial. The law does generally favor defendants in a DFR. However, again, in my view, USAPA (probably on the advice of counsel) has done almost everything wrong it could in causing a fact pattern giving rise to an action and then in how they proceeded with arguing their case to this point. Remember, USAPA (if my memory serves me correctly) has seemed to take different positions in different ongoing litigation matters with different opposing parties in different venues. How do you come to court to argue a case when you have seemingly argued a contrary position in another court? How does one explain to a judge why their client is saying different things in different courts on fundamental issues to the litigation? That is a large problem here and I believe that the advice provided to USAPA has not been consistent in regards to legal matters.

... and the negative consequences for all pilots of an incorrect finding of a DFR violation.

Incorrect finding of a DFR violation? What the heck is that? Are you saying that if Addington, et al., win that it is an incorrect finding of a DFR violation? Isn't that highly presumptuous?

 

[Waketurbulence]

The West seniority proposal to Nicolau was to place 935 active East pilots below the bottom West pilot. BLAH BLAH BLAH...

In the famous words of "My Cousin' Vinny"... Everything this guy just said is BS!... Thank you.

 

[nic4us]

Underpants,

I have something else to add.

As I am currently not paying 85% of dues as an objector. Once USAPA goes to get an audit of its germane expenses, I do not feel the auditor will consider legal expenses in a case in which they are found responsible for discriminating against a minority to be germane to contract enforcement.

Consider it as I paraphrase Mr.Big, "its the best union dues I have not spent in my 22 years of union flying. But it allows me to give you the finger of faith, while the union tries to give my job to someone they and MrBig deem more deserving."

 

[usabusdriver]

The jury will decide if USAPA’s actions were necessary, reasonable, and fair to all pilots. Although very unlikely USAPA could be required to return to the ALPA status quo and hopeless gridlock by a finding of a DFR violation by the jury and the court issuing the injunction that the West attorneys have requested. A DFR loss for USAPA would make little difference to the East pilots but would be devastating to the careers of the West pilots.

underpants......... off to the Riviera Maya for some diving and R&R

Underpants,

Interesting reading but I feel it needs a couple of clarifying points. The question the west pilots have brought before the court to be decided is not whether or not the USAPA DOH seniority list is fair and equitable, but does USAPA have the right to ignore the Nicolau award and present its own derived list. If it is legal to do so, as determined by the jury, then there is no DFR by USAPA. The other point is about the “hopeless gridlock†comment. How do you present this to the jury? Was a contract T/A put to the membership for a vote? You cannot just say “I know it would not pass and therefore we are in gridlockâ€, so how does one “prove†there is or was “hopeless gridlock"?

Do you want that a T/A put out for membership vote is separate ratification or not? Remember the “let my daddy vote†campaign? If the Nic is upheld by the jury what then? If Kirby and Parker have some deal in the works and they get an epiphany and offer a decent contract it could get interesting. Yes I know, a lot of ifs there, but all of the west, if they join, and 25% east would ratify a new contract with the Nic. And the adage that separate ops would be forever if the Nic is upheld poses a problem for USAPA concerning arriving back in court for a follow up DFR for delaying a contract unless it is put out to the membership for a ratification vote.

Just food for the banter.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I couldn't agree more - the top 517 on his list should not have been given the free pass they received.

You mean the 517 who were pretty much all captains at USAir/Piedmont/PSA before America West even saw the light of day?

The 517 who have had 28 plus years of uninterrupted service with this airline?

Those 517 got a free pass by not having someone who was in diapers when we were flying commercially jump in front of us to fly Rome as captain on the A330?

Those 517?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Underpants

May I post your post#5 on another forum?

 

[nostradamus]

The jury will decide if USAPA’s actions were necessary, reasonable, and fair to all pilots. Although very unlikely USAPA could be required to return to the ALPA status quo and hopeless gridlock by a finding of a DFR violation by the jury and the court issuing the injunction that the West attorneys have requested. A DFR loss for USAPA would make little difference to the East pilots but would be devastating to the careers of the West pilots.

underpants......... off to the Riviera Maya for some diving and R&R

Very good summary of the current situation regarding the USAirways pilots. Enjoy your short sabbatical.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

You mean the 517 who were pretty much all captains at USAir/Piedmont/PSA before America West even saw the light of day?

The 517 who have had 28 plus years of uninterrupted service with this airline?

Those 517 got a free pass by not having someone who was in diapers when we were flying commercially jump in front of us to fly Rome as captain on the A330?

Those 517?

Taking a little liberty with the diapers analogy, I see. Your anal side is beginning to show - again.

Our top seniority folks ALL have been Captains since day one here - that's 24 and 25 years of uninterupted Captain-ship. And nearly all of them left a Captain's/Aircraft Commander seat at their previous airline/military position to come to work for America West.

Trust me, there wasn't a diaper in sight.

Furthermore, each and every one of them took a much bigger career gamble to work here at the little upstart AWA than your average 24 year old who's daddy got him hired at Piedmont/Useless in 1979.

That pretty much negates your not-so-subtle hint of superior experience on the east. It's just not there.

So, yea, it's those 517 I'm talking about.

And here's the important thing: even though I feel strongly that Nicolau got that part wrong, I accept the process, and am willing to live with the outcome.