US Pilots Labor Thread 3/25-4/1

[BoeingBoy]

I guess you are right the nic did and will set the precedent for all airline mergers in US of A for the pilot groups.

Actually, Nic followed the pattern set by the Shuttle integration. Which followed the pattern used in the FedX/Flying Tiger integration. Which followed the pattern used in the Air Wisconsin/Mississippi Valley integration.

DOH is not as sacrosanct in pilot mergers as some would have you believe, john-john.

Jim

 

[LSS]

DOH is not as sacrosanct in pilot mergers as some would have you believe, john-john.

Good enough for the majority of other unions... but then "pilots" are special... and deserve "better" treatment.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not better or special, just have a lot more of their career determined by seniority instead of DOH than other employee groups. Do F/A's have 50% pay differences depending on which position they work and which airplane? Do mechanic's pension contributions depend on whether they work hanger or line? Do ramper's determine when they can take vacation by what flights they work?

Jim

 

[john john]

Not better or special, just have a lot more of their career determined by seniority instead of DOH than other employee groups. Do F/A's have 50% pay differences depending on which position they work and which airplane? Do mechanic's pension contributions depend on whether they work hanger or line? Do ramper's determine when they can take vacation by what flights they work?

Jim

Just do what HP Pilots do. One pay rate for every a/c

 

[ussnark]

Not better or special, just have a lot more of their career determined by seniority instead of DOH than other employee groups.

No more so than the flight attendants or mechanics, among others. Pretty entitled position, don't you think?

Besides, you are setting up a false dichotomy by trying to compare DOH with seniority. One is used to determine the other. They are not, normally, equal.

 

[ussnark]

Look to the Delta/Northwest arbitrated combined seniority list. It essentially parallels the Nicolau arbitrated combined seniority list.

Let me fix that for you.

It essentially parallels the Nicolau arbitrated combined seniority list for pilot groups who are fairly close to each other, seniority-wise.

There you go.

 

[BoeingBoy]

One pay rate for every a/c

Not quite...two pay scales for all aircraft they have now, like TWA had at the end. Don't know but doubt the Dash used the same scale when it was flown by mainline HP. Maybe the 747 had a different scale also. But looks like that'll go away with a joint contract so is immaterial.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Good enough for the majority of other unions... but then "pilots" are special... and deserve "better" treatment.

Different unions all work differently.

For instance Seafarers work on a first in first out type of system that I believe you can decline assignment as your name moves up the list at the union hall, to try and get better choices of ship, destination, etc..
But if you are a cook you will not get an engineer assignment, just as the engineer will not get a bridge assignment, does not matter who has been a Seafarer longer. So I guess Seafarers are "special" too.

I do not know how Police and Firefighters work, but I am pretty certain it does not matter who was hired first, but who passed the test and training to move up and become Inspector, Captain, Chief, etc.and when the city has to layoff it may not necessarily go DOH.....So I guess police and firefighters are "special" too.

Teachers....I would think pretty similar to Police and Firefighters...extra "special" too..

We all deserve better treatment. That is why we form unions, but pilots form associations, because they have circumstances that are different from other labor groups.

 

[ussnark]

Different unions all work differently.

For instance Seafarers work on a first in first out type of system that I believe you can decline assignment as your name moves up the list at the union hall, to try and get better choices of ship, destination, etc..
But if you are a cook you will not get an engineer assignment, just as the engineer will not get a bridge assignment, does not matter who has been a Seafarer longer. So I guess Seafarers are "special" too.

I do not know how Police and Firefighters work, but I am pretty certain it does not matter who was hired first, but who passed the test and training to move up and become Inspector, Captain, Chief, etc.and when the city has to layoff it may not necessarily go DOH.....So I guess police and firefighters are "special" too.

Teachers....I would think pretty similar to Police and Firefighters...extra "special" too..

We all deserve better treatment. That is why we form unions, but pilots form associations, because they have circumstances that are different from other labor groups.

Your first statement about "Seafarers" is correct. The rest is a mish-mash of poorly understood rules of the maritime unions. Rest assured, within each "craft", just like pilots, it is all DOH. I'd be happy to put you in touch with a few maritime union personnel so that you can get your story straight.

About your last statement. Union people name themselves an "association" because they think they are better than anyone else, mainly because they are too weak to confront any kind of conflict. Their only "strength", like a homeowners group, is to interdict fellow homeowners. They feel they bring nothing to the table and like a submissive dog, go to beg, er negotiate. The pilots I know who act that way are way too weak when it comes to aviation knowledge, but, their uncertainty is desired by management, viewed as a highly compliant workforce and not the skilled employees they are. Sad, your concept of a union/association.

 

[nic4us]

Your first statement about "Seafarers" is correct. The rest is a mish-mash of poorly understood rules of the maritime unions. I'd be happy to put you in touch with a few maritime union personnel so that you can get your story straight.

No need. My brother and uncle are both retired seafarers, and I have a pretty good handle on how it works.

 

[V1cut]

It's a shame, then, that you fail to recognize the preponderance of DOH evidence all around you. To wit: the NYFD firefighter who is getting "furloughed" after 2 tours in Iraq. It was making National news a fews weeks back. He went to war, his FD precinct was cutting back due to the economy. He was coming home to a furlough notice based on his DOH at the NYFD. The FD Captain was being questioned on National TV about the "unfairness of it..."

The Captain said this:

"We are a union, our union is based on date of hire principles...last-in-first-out....thats it, end of story."

I say, DITTO.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Union people name themselves an "association" because they think they are better than anyone else, mainly because they are too weak to confront any kind of conflict.

Like tha Association of Flight Attendents, Int'l Association of Machinists, Allied Pilots Association, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association? Didn't USAPA use the last two as examples of the benefits of an independent union?

The name doesn't matter - the members do. You could rename it "The Union of Unionized US Airways Pilots Union" but if more members were worried about losing their job than confronting management for better pay/benefits it wouldn't matter.

Jim

 

[flybynite]

Watching the latest Crew News in PHX there was mention of LOA93?( not sure if that's correct)

What exactly is that and what does it entail?

 

[ussnark]

You could rename it "The Union of Unionized US Airways Pilots Union" but if more members were worried about losing their job than confronting management for better pay/benefits it wouldn't matter.

Indeed, the weak ones are truly worried about having to fill out a resume. It is the "nut" that management uses for "compliance", like "we are always at war with Easturasia" or war on whatever, it keeps the hoi polloi distracted.

Twenty years ago, I remember "discussions" about whether ALPA was a union or association. Some considered it a PR problem, a negative stereotype of unions, especially in the South. A conclusion was that an association was composed of "gentlemen" who apparently did not care enough about their jobs or career to assert themselves, relying on attorneys to do so for them. A sort of outsourcing. A ridiculous failure.

Your statement implying a situation where pay/benefits would not matter. Did you fear a union bringing down a corporation? What about loss of jobs? Is it a union's (association's) goal to "save jobs", like ALPA did with MDA? That worked out well, don't you think?

 

[UPNAWAY]

BTW, the seniority system is a Big negative not a positive for unions IMHO. Not that any of you care, but the majority of the public would agree with me that Unions in general and Seniority in particular is a negative on American business not a positive.
And I also think most union employees would also agree the seniority issue bites them as much as it "Protects" them.

It is a flawed system.