Voting Yes

[The Goose]

I realize I and many others have said otherwise, but stop and consider for a sec ...

If we (the M&R portion of the workers) end up voting "NO" enmasse and eventually get released to strike, what can we do to the company while off the property other than carry signs, yelling and screaming at those going through the lines, and getting more hateful with our comments while ensuring the company's cost will drop?

Answer - absolutely nothing of consequence.

It would be far more advantageous to our cause and definitely not to the company's advantage at all if they and their pet union get what they want with us on the inside insuring, of course, the new contract and GPM are followed to the letter.

I do see similarities in the "logic" being used by both the union and company similar to the sales pitch in 2003 and everything they were going to do replete with code names except, this time, nobody is using the "B" ( bankruptcy) word.

As far as making a firm decision as to my up or down vote on this mess, I will reserve that until the full text is available. I must say, however, I don't expect much after reading the continuing "lowlights" being put out by PrAAvdAA (a play on the old Soviet Newspaper, Pravda) as I refer to the joint TWU/AA propaganda machine. It ain't lookin' too good for their side, however.

This, coupled with a group of people in the local who will deep-six the "Working Together" crap, thereby making the company do their own dirty work , may be to our best advantage rather than getting off the property willingly (striking) so the company needn't pay severance and unemployemt benefits should there be a layoff afterwards.

Just thoughts - only alternative logic.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Vote NO! Pure and simple.

 

[The Goose]

Vote NO! Pure and simple.

Gee - what a (non)thoughtful response. I didn't ask how you felt I should vote re: the contract whenever that might happen.

Some become more like those they despise every day - office and executive types are supposed to be the ones who won't/can't directly answer a question, rather, answer a question that wasn't asked as it maintains their "control". Very hollow management level trick, Ken.

Perhaps that applies to union officers also - even if they collect dues from another source.

 

[whoop whoop]

I realize I and many others have said otherwise, but stop and consider for a sec ...

If we (the M&R portion of the workers) end up voting "NO" enmasse and eventually get released to strike, what can we do to the company while off the property other than carry signs, yelling and screaming at those going through the lines, and getting more hateful with our comments while ensuring the company's cost will drop?

Answer - absolutely nothing of consequence.

It would be far more advantageous to our cause and definitely not to the company's advantage at all if they and their pet union get what they want with us on the inside insuring, of course, the new contract and GPM are followed to the letter.

I do see similarities in the "logic" being used by both the union and company similar to the sales pitch in 2003 and everything they were going to do replete with code names except, this time, nobody is using the "B" ( bankruptcy) word.

As far as making a firm decision as to my up or down vote on this mess, I will reserve that until the full text is available. I must say, however, I don't expect much after reading the continuing "lowlights" being put out by PrAAvdAA (a play on the old Soviet Newspaper, Pravda) as I refer to the joint TWU/AA propaganda machine.

This, coupled with a group of people in the local who will deep-six the "Working Together" crap, thereby making the company do their own dirty work , may be to our best advantage rather than getting off the property willingly (striking) so the company needn't pay severance and unemployemt benefits should there be a layoff afterwards.

Just thoughts - only alternative logic.

I understand what you are saying, hit the company from within. There is 1 big flaw to that plan. If you remember recent history, around the year 2000 UAL had a judge put an injunction on their mechanics stating they are not allowed to "work to rule". Meaning if it has taken you 2 hours to change a tire for the last 20 years and now it takes 8 hours because you are going by the book, you can now get fined and/or imprisoned. And most likely terminated.
What we need to understand it's all these industrial unions breaking this profession down. We need one union with ALL of the AMT's in it to have the power of the collective group to fight these companies and these outdated laws and new laws that tie our hands. By voting yes you are only giving up. By voting no, you are now telling the union and the company, get back to work and do something better for you.

 

[boston]

I understand what you are saying, hit the company from within. There is 1 big flaw to that plan. If you remember recent history, around the year 2000 UAL had a judge put an injunction on their mechanics stating they are not allowed to "work to rule". Meaning if it has taken you 2 hours to change a tire for the last 20 years and now it takes 8 hours because you are going by the book, you can now get fined and/or imprisoned. And most likely terminated.
What we need to understand it's all these industrial unions breaking this profession down. We need one union with ALL of the AMT's in it to have the power of the collective group to fight these companies and these outdated laws and new laws that tie our hands. By voting yes you are only giving up. By voting no, you are now telling the union and the company, get back to work and do something better for you.

Working to rule was gone over and over at our APFA road shows, yup a big no no. When is the vote due??

Wish you all the best of luck,

 

[The Goose]

Working to rule was gone over and over at our APFA road shows, yup a big no no. When is the vote due??

Wish you all the best of luck,

Evidently, the TULE base personnel (and then only those in certain positions) were the only ones who were required to take the computer based training that basically defined the word "verbatim" and told us we could be individually fined and licenses yanked for not doing so. This occured within the previous 12 months, all precipitated by the S80 wiring harness mess (1 inch, not 1.015 or .985!!).

The company trained its personnel re: the word "verbatim" - there are training records that would make it hard to dispute unless they get "accidently" purged.

Interesting paradox here - after requiring CBT that basically said 'Work to Rule".

 

[Buckky]

Evidently, the TULE base personnel (and then only those in certain positions) were the only ones who were required to take the computer based training that basically defined the word "verbatim" and told us we could be individually fined and licenses yanked for not doing so. This occured within the previous 12 months, all precipitated by the S80 wiring harness mess (1 inch, not 1.015 or .985!!).

The company trained its personnel re: the word "verbatim" - there are training records that would make it hard to dispute unless they get "accidently" purged.

Interesting paradox here - after requiring CBT that basically said 'Work to Rule".

Other than performing an AD, what was the title of this CBT training course.. I am at TULand don't recall any such requiremment.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I realize I and many others have said otherwise, but stop and consider for a sec ...

If we (the M&R portion of the workers) end up voting "NO" enmasse and eventually get released to strike, what can we do to the company while off the property other than carry signs, yelling and screaming at those going through the lines, and getting more hateful with our comments while ensuring the company's cost will drop?

Answer - absolutely nothing of consequence.

WOW!!!!! Someone that has an actual logical thought process. You better be careful that could get you into trouble around here. You are right about the yelling and screaming for you will be toting your sign in some obscure corner looking more like your in a cakewalk than a picket line. All the while being in a fine position to watch aircraft after aircraft take off fully manned and loaded.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I understand what you are saying, hit the company from within. There is 1 big flaw to that plan. If you remember recent history, around the year 2000 UAL had a judge put an injunction on their mechanics stating they are not allowed to "work to rule".

This is where the whole, "Solidarity" and "An injury to one is an injury to all" rhetoric breaks down and makes unions of today absolutely useless. Instead of drooping your head and walking home with your tail tucked between your legs this is a prime time for all unions to come together and start picketing the courthouses. Come-on people, it is time to take your country back.

 

[The Goose]

Other than performing an AD, what was the title of this CBT training course.. I am at TULand don't recall any such requiremment.

That's exactly the "training" I'm referring to - it's not a stretch to require verbatim compliance with all procedures. If ADs really are "that" important, how could a judge say "follow one but not the other"?

 

[Flyboy4u]

That's exactly the "training" I'm referring to - it's not a stretch to require verbatim compliance with all procedures. If ADs really are "that" important, how could a judge say "follow one but not the other"?

Hand positions on the door., correctly!...Do not try your own Commands. and remember the FAA is watching? Btw...Personal fines are in the Thousands..Make sure the bonus check covers your ass ( Scab )? It could be very expensive when you F""ck it up!. The FAA is watching. !!

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I realize I and many others have said otherwise, but stop and consider for a sec ...

If we (the M&R portion of the workers) end up voting "NO" enmasse and eventually get released to strike, what can we do to the company while off the property other than carry signs, yelling and screaming at those going through the lines, and getting more hateful with our comments while ensuring the company's cost will drop?

Answer - absolutely nothing of consequence.

It would be far more advantageous to our cause and definitely not to the company's advantage at all if they and their pet union get what they want with us on the inside insuring, of course, the new contract and GPM are followed to the letter.

I do see similarities in the "logic" being used by both the union and company similar to the sales pitch in 2003 and everything they were going to do replete with code names except, this time, nobody is using the "B" ( bankruptcy) word.

As far as making a firm decision as to my up or down vote on this mess, I will reserve that until the full text is available. I must say, however, I don't expect much after reading the continuing "lowlights" being put out by PrAAvdAA (a play on the old Soviet Newspaper, Pravda) as I refer to the joint TWU/AA propaganda machine. It ain't lookin' too good for their side, however.

This, coupled with a group of people in the local who will deep-six the "Working Together" crap, thereby making the company do their own dirty work , may be to our best advantage rather than getting off the property willingly (striking) so the company needn't pay severance and unemployemt benefits should there be a layoff afterwards.

Just thoughts - only alternative logic.

It all sounds good on paper but this is something that we should have been doing since the amendable date of the contract. The problem here at AA is that you cant get guys to refuse a "no lunch" much less work by the book. Good luck but the company knows for every guy that tries to work by the book there are two others running out there to save the place from burning down. In my past exsperience the best thing to do is exactly what management tells you to do if anyone can screw up the operation they can...

 

[Bob Owens]

I realize I and many others have said otherwise, but stop and consider for a sec ...

If we (the M&R portion of the workers) end up voting "NO" enmasse and eventually get released to strike, what can we do to the company while off the property other than carry signs, yelling and screaming at those going through the lines, and getting more hateful with our comments while ensuring the company's cost will drop?

Answer - absolutely nothing of consequence.

It would be far more advantageous to our cause and definitely not to the company's advantage at all if they and their pet union get what they want with us on the inside insuring, of course, the new contract and GPM are followed to the letter.

I do see similarities in the "logic" being used by both the union and company similar to the sales pitch in 2003 and everything they were going to do replete with code names except, this time, nobody is using the "B" ( bankruptcy) word.

As far as making a firm decision as to my up or down vote on this mess, I will reserve that until the full text is available. I must say, however, I don't expect much after reading the continuing "lowlights" being put out by PrAAvdAA (a play on the old Soviet Newspaper, Pravda) as I refer to the joint TWU/AA propaganda machine. It ain't lookin' too good for their side, however.

This, coupled with a group of people in the local who will deep-six the "Working Together" crap, thereby making the company do their own dirty work , may be to our best advantage rather than getting off the property willingly (striking) so the company needn't pay severance and unemployemt benefits should there be a layoff afterwards.

Just thoughts - only alternative logic.

I think the logic is illogical.

First, you assume that we would be released and that there would be no PEB. I think their would be, especially if we were released during the busy, and lucrative, not just for the airlines, Summer Travel season. There really isnt much excess capacity out there, hundreds of thousands would be stranded. If we were released and went on strike the company would pretty much be brought to a standstill within days, if not immediately. Unlike NWA the company has not prepared for a mechanics strike. Even with 10% unemployment there arent enough mechanics out there to keep AA running even if they had tried. NWA had a hard time five years ago and the supply of unemployed A&Ps hasny gone up, AA found that out as they blew threw the 300 recalls at NY where over 90% declined recall.

If we vote no the most likely result would be an improved contract once Tulsa puts someone in office who wants Tulsa to remain an Airline Overhaul Base and not an MRO.

As far as waiting for the full text I think that the "Highlights" provide more than sufficient information to justify a "NO" vote. I doubt there will be anything of consequence that could justify the divisve structure, the inadequate pay adjustments, the loss of retiree health and all the other concessions that have been incorporated into this deal. They will try and sell it with some merger or spin-off protection language but history should have taught you by now that those promises are rarely kept, just ask anyone with seniority between 1998 and 2001 who saw their system protection taken away, or anyone here since 1995 who remembers the "Me Too" clause or even more recently the 2006 Early Opener clause.

As far as the layoffs afterwards, I dont think layoffs are on the horizon for Tulsa, unless this passes, then they can layoff due to productivity gains. They will layoff mechanics to make room for the OSMs. There would be a reshuffling of people. With the doubling of the ASMS for Eagle most of our class II stations would close. Those mechanics wont be forced to the street, there will be openings at the class I stations who will be doing some of the base overflow. The bases are booked solid till at least 2014, in part due to the closure of MCI. With the scheduled work LGA alone will need another 50 guys, not counting attrition (we already saw 10 guys retire this year, around the same at JFK and two guys resigned because they found better jobs). PHL and EWR combined would not be enough to fill the LGA shortage.

If this passes I would expect the attrition rate to dramatically increase on the line. Remember they said that the OSMs would go do AMT work through attrition, a guy in JFK quits or retires, theres an opening for an OSM in Tulsa, and a layoff of an A&P in Tulsa, the bottom A&P goes to New York.

If this contract passes the company will start forcing A&Ps out of the bases the same way they forced them out of the shops in 1995. Only this time they will need them out on the line.

 

[The Goose]

Bob:


I had wondered about the OSM vs: A&P battle taking shape, Bob - it's not good.

I don't agree with this crap TA either and I take exception to the further insult but - I've always liked to consider the other side of things even though I had strong feelings otherwise. One of the best postions to take in a debate is the one opposite of one's feelings. With this crew of rummies, however, it's a sure thing those of lesser thought will start calling names not knowing where one actually stands. Guess it's far better to do the "stomp" and yell "vote no" at every opportunity rather than putting thoughts into words.

After musing as I did, I read something about the various market share held by different airlines. Perhaps the PEB may be a reality, all considered, should there be a release down the road.

Regardless of the employer, what's happening is not good for the trade. Rather than play into the "make it cheaper" game, we should be pushing harder for reregulation to perhaps bring some order to the mix passing themselves off as airlines.

FYI - unless there are SUBSTANTIAL changes in this TA's final wording, my vote will be a solid NO.

 

[Boomer]

What happens to the cash AA/AMR has stashed in the Retiree Health Benefit Fund if the TWU actually votes to end retiree medical insurance for those under fifty? What is the valuation basis for those funds: lowest value over the period reported, or average value of assets held over the last five years?

Why would the TWU abandon the FAR66 Language gained in the '01 contract for a minority certificate classification now given that the minority certificate holders could reasonably become the majority voting block within the TWU ATD?

Why would the Ramp get the ability to "hard freeze" their DBP for a 5.5% contribution to a DCP; while not negotiating the same terms for the M&R?

Why would the TWU APPROVE any early opener statement that states that the financial component must retain the relative standing of the covered contract group with respect to the rest of the INDUSTRY: if this TA places us as the 7th worst paid out of 8 air carriers our early opener language requires that whatever is negotiated requires that we remain the 7th worst paid out of the 8 air carriers.

Unlike what OTHERS have stated: if the TWU Membership votes down this anti-worker, anti-union TWU APPROVED Tentative Agreement, that is really a work-in-progress, Negotiatons Actually Start OVER at the BEGINNING.

Give AMR the win in stretching out the process: do not codify the failure of the TWU by ratifying something they can amend at will through the letter of agreement.