Does Delta still have NWA scabs working?

[WorldTraveler]

Q,
Do you suppose that the reason why airline employees hate change AND the way things are is because they can't walk away from the past, in this case NW's failed labor relations with AMFA?
We have people here who want to hold out those who chose to come to work as demons when the actions of the union and the company combined to put thousands of people on the street. Not exactly a model of a success or one that too many employees seek to follow.

I think that should basically cover everything.

except the profit sharing which has been richer for DL employees than for any other airline employee group over the past three years.... WN employees - long regarded as having the best profit sharing in the industry - haven't come anywhere close to DL's profit sharing levels of late.
Based on the AMT scale above, profit sharing amounts to about $5000 per year.... a couple years in a row.

Not negotiated by any union.

 

[Kev3188]

i thought there was a post somewhere that a union or few were trying again to get cards for an election at DL?

There are active campaigns for both the F/A's & ramp right now.

 

[WorldTraveler]

just like there have been at DL for about 80 years - without success.

 

[robbedagain]

kev just curious is the iam the main union trying to organize the ramp and the flight attendants? and how long have they been tryin

 

[Kev3188]

The F/A's approached the IAM about organizing. Their camapign has been running for inside of a year, and has some very real momentum right now.

The ramp campaign is more of a "slow & steady" one...

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL FAs have had more opportunities to vote for a union than probably any other workgroup in the airline industry yet have repeatedly decided the value that can be obtained from a union is not worth it.

Even when the AFA was handed 10,000 card-carrying NWA FAs, they couldn't deliver, given that there will be always be a minority of PMDL employees in every workgroup who think labor representation would be beneficial; nonetheless, the majority of DL employees, including those who came from NW, WA, PA and other more heavily unionized carriers, do not believe a union is worth it.

Something dramatic would have to change to convince DL employees and esp. the FAs that union representation is worth it... so far everything that is happening at the company and for the employees is moving in the completely opposite direction.

The fact that representation campaigns have been no more successful at B6 says the issue is about what labor unions can deliver.

 

[robbedagain]

i have not heard of b6 employees trying to go union

kev is the iam also trying the ramp

 

[Kev3188]

Yes they are.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there have been unionization efforts at B6; B6' pilots have voted against unions twice.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-16/jetblue-pilots-spurn-union-representation-a-second-time-1-.html

remember that the changes in voting rules were supposed to hurt B6 and DL yet that has not occurred.

 

[lineguy43]

Q,
Do you suppose that the reason why airline employees hate change AND the way things are is because they can't walk away from the past, in this case NW's failed labor relations with AMFA?
We have people here who want to hold out those who chose to come to work as demons when the actions of the union and the company combined to put thousands of people on the street. Not exactly a model of a success or one that too many employees seek to follow.



except the profit sharing which has been richer for DL employees than for any other airline employee group over the past three years.... WN employees - long regarded as having the best profit sharing in the industry - haven't come anywhere close to DL's profit sharing levels of late.
Based on the AMT scale above, profit sharing amounts to about $5000 per year.... a couple years in a row.

Not negotiated by any union.

As someone who lived the AMFA strike I would like to respond. It is not just that we are demonizing people who want to work. Scabs are a special breed they take advantage of a situation where a company will more than likely wave hiring standards to fill positions quickly when a strike occurs. I like to think of it as someone who walks in your house and takes food out of your fridge that you paid for because you left your front door open. We were forced to fight for our jobs since NW wanted to gut 53% of us and force a huge pay cut on those who remained. I was in the 53% to hit the street and I had 17 yrs in. Just because you like to post that Delta's AMT's make what they make in salary and bonuses and it was not negotiated by a union is a moot point because there is no way AMT's at DL or even where I am at FX would be making what we are if not for the 2000 AMT contract under AMFA at NWA and that is a solid fact. We raised the bar for the industry union and non-union alike. Remember non-union companies pay union scales and sometimes more to keep the unions out. Just because DL is non-union those that are there should care because scabs are beneath comtempt and not to be trusted. Real men and women have honor and know right from wrong. Scabs do not.

 

[wings396]

Nice post with many great points made.

 

[Kev3188]

+1

Ethics aside, let's also not forget that these guys did a terrible job of, you know, actually fixing airplanes...

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

As someone who lived the AMFA strike I would like to respond. It is not just that we are demonizing people who want to work. Scabs are a special breed they take advantage of a situation where a company will more than likely wave hiring standards to fill positions quickly when a strike occurs. I like to think of it as someone who walks in your house and takes food out of your fridge that you paid for because you left your front door open. We were forced to fight for our jobs since NW wanted to gut 53% of us and force a huge pay cut on those who remained. I was in the 53% to hit the street and I had 17 yrs in. Just because you like to post that Delta's AMT's make what they make in salary and bonuses and it was not negotiated by a union is a moot point because there is no way AMT's at DL or even where I am at FX would be making what we are if not for the 2000 AMT contract under AMFA at NWA and that is a solid fact. We raised the bar for the industry union and non-union alike. Remember non-union companies pay union scales and sometimes more to keep the unions out. Just because DL is non-union those that are there should care because scabs are beneath comtempt and not to be trusted. Real men and women have honor and know right from wrong. Scabs do not.

Many people forget the fact that each time our negotiators would agree to some target, NWA would move that target farther away. They knew you and I, and the other 53% + would not vote to eliminate our jobs and leave the ones left at a more than 25% pay cut.

As for the internal scabs; As long as they stayed employed, they would not have to undergo the new rigorous employment standards of all the airlines and reputable companies. Many were misfits and slugs who could never have earned a letter of recommendation from anyone. Simply put, they would not be hired by anyone outside of NWA had they lost their job, and they knew it. As for those who were hired by NWA to cross the line; same thing. They were all those who were unable to get a job at any airline when they had to compete in the regular marketplace.

No matter how WT spins it, they vast majority of the scabs were/are employees who could not make it by marketing their skills. They had to wait for some desperate company who needed a large group of gap-fillers to get hired.

http://www.exnwa.com...f/scab list.pdf

http://www.exnwa.com/scab_main.htm

 

[WorldTraveler]

There are several important points to discuss in the posts above.
First, I have never made any statement about the quality of work that the “scabs” did at NW. In fact, there is no doubt based on the very lengthy thread on this forum that NW was being held together by bailing wire in the aftermath of the AMFA lockout. But it is impossible to accurately and truthfully argue that the reason for NW’s maintenance problems was the caliber of the mechanics that NW hired post AMFA. Given that NW fired 5000 workers and then hired 1000 in their place who were not familiar with NW’s procedures or fleet or operation should raise all kinds of alarms – and the fact that NW was able to keep the airline operation without more involvement from the FAA is more than a bit concerning…. But that chapter is over and no one has yet to prove that the mechanics were incompetent any more than can be argued that they were improperly trained and prepared to handle the work which NW gave them. If they are really incompetent mechanics and still work for DL, they need to be removed. But given that the “scabs” could make up as much as 10% of DL’s maintenance workforce, it is impossible to believe they could all be incompetent or else the impact on DL today would be obvious and enormous.

Second, it is hardly a badge of courage to argue that AMFA obtained huge gains in pay in 2000 only to have the company turn its focus on eliminating the union in the years that followed. In fact, UA’s ALPA unit made the same claims after their summer of hell in which they promised to squeeze every egg out of the goose. UA ended up becoming one of the first major airlines to file for BK post 9/11, stayed in BK longer than any other airline in US history, and took back every bit ALPA gained and more. To add insult to injury and prove that UA mgmt would never agree to a deal with UA ALPA that allowed UA pilots to lead the industry in a contract, UA mgmt was determined to drive home the point in the last contract that UA’s pilot contract would be one year behind DL’s. UA pilots may have won the battle but they paid a very high price for over 10 years and they won’t be in a position to even try to recover a position of pay leadership for at least 15 years after that contract “win” in 2000. NW mgmt decided that AMFA may have won the battle but NW was going to win the war – and NW was determined to dismantle AMFA which NW did.

Third, far too few people are willing to acknowledge that labor-mgmt relations are high-stakes games of strategy and tenacity which mgmt is just as capable of winning as labor. Labor in the airline industry is far too accustomed to being able to demand pay raises, go thru the process, and then strike to achieve what they want; in fact, there was little risk in striking because mgmt would likely cave to some degree at some point, just like what UA mgmt did w/ their pilots. DL played hardball with OH pilots who had aspirations of being paid much higher up the scale and OH never was the same again and ultimately was dismantled. In the OH and UA pilot situations and with NW/AMFA, mgmt came back with very strong responses which ultimately cost labor far more than what they had gained or attempted to gain. Labor has to provide a convincing argument to members/potential or actual AND be willing to take on mgmt who increasingly has tools and strategies that have been very capable at stifling any gains labor might make. It is precisely because labor’s attempts to win against mgmt in the airline industry have a pretty poor track record over the past decade plus that few employees real believe that labor can deliver what it promises – if labor is even willing to make bold promises. The simple fact is that mgmt in the US hates labor and will do anything they can to ensure labor makes as few gains as possible. That type of system does not exist to the same degree but that is the environment the US has created for business. DL and other heavily non-union employers have figured out how to create successful businesses outside of the grip of labor. The fact that many non-union airlines are some of the strongest in their particular sector of the industry says that those companies know exactly how to use the assets they have, including their non-union status which their employees are not willing to change.

Fourth, I have absolutely no problem with labor trying to improve the lot of Americans – but it is an economic principle that it becomes harder and harder to make gains when the bar has already been moved fairly high which is what the labor movement did for American workers over 50 years. Airline workers are still paid well above average compared to other industries and it is not realistic to think that those gains can be maintained. Every long-lived carrier in the airline industry has had to pull back on the wage and benefits it once offered, and that is most recently happening at WN. Labor’s biggest gains came at a lower point in the economic cycle and on a global scale, organized labor still has the opportunity to move a lot of people to higher standards of living and safer working conditions; the Bangladesh clothing factory accident was a reminder not only of how bad working conditions are for many people in the world but that sadly, it really hasn’t been that long that working conditions were the same even in the countries that are now called “developed.”

Fifth, I find it highly hypocritical that a forum such as this that is based upon the notion of anonymity for its members so they can rail against their employers/former employers find it the least bit acceptable to publish the names of real people who happened to legally step into an economic opportunity even if some don’t like it. Perhaps it should be equally fair to have a website that includes the names, pictures, and employment situations of those who participate in airline chat forums. After all, publishing someone’s name as a “scab” based on one’s sense of the injustice of the economic situation in which the “scabs” profited is no different than someone else’s sense that those who accept pay and benefits from a company and then criticize that company should be willing to do so publicly and not behind the cloak of anonymity – or those people can accept the injustice of publishing anyone’s name for any reason. (and for the record I have no intention of revealing anything about anyone here but I sure as heck will note the hypocrisy involved based on who benefits.)

Finally, the simple fact is that AMFA made a calculated decision (or it should have been) to push for gains against NW. NW aggressively responded and AMFA lost. Where is the sense of injustice against the labor leaders who cost thousands of employees their jobs and undoubtedly there were marriages that crumbled and houses and cars that got repossessed in the process? I’m sure some of those people like Q did land on their feet again and I’m glad for them. I bought a house from a realtor that was a former Eastern employee who was active in their labor movement; she was a darned good realtor but bore the scars for EA’s labor movement for years (and incidentally that person and I maintained contact and friendship long after our professional encounter.) Laying the blame at the feet of those who walked into a legal economic opportunity because a few labor leaders seriously miscalculated the challenge they faced has got to rank as one of the most cowardly approaches to personal responsibility I can think of.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

I have never published a list of anyone who crossed a picket line at NWA. I simply linked to a website that purports to be made up of honorable members of ex-NWA employees. They have a list.

I have no idea who originated the site, nor who maintains or operates it.

"Legal economic opportunity"

That is funny. Same could be said for the person who finds an expensive diamond ring outside a business establishment, looks around and pockets it, feeling like they scored.

An honorable person would, well, if you do not get it, then I cannot explain it.