Does Delta still have NWA scabs working?

[WorldTraveler]

You don't seem to grasp that the American people by and large view labor unions as organizations which they support in order to gain something and if that organization can't deliver anymore there is no interest.

The mere fact that labor representation among American workers is at all-time lows and continues to drop says that people are not choosing to belong to labor unions.

You can call those who don't agree with you names but I would suggest that you invest a little time figuring out why those people don't support what is valuable to you. You would gain a whole lot more by fixing the problem than hurling insults at those who simply tell you the truth that you try very hard not to hear.

There are a lot of other organizations that have faced the same reality in more society; they either adapt or become extinct.

 

[700UW]

I dont give a crap what the public or anyone thinks of unions, if you are a union member and you scab, you bring upon yourself the treatment that you deserve.

Its ok for them to enjoy the benefits of the people who went on strike to achieve while they stabbed their brothers and sisters in the back, nope, thats not ok.

 

[blue collar]

They where their uniform on company property and don't display it on the internet.
...
The fact that there are non-union employees who fare far better economically than their unionized peers says the labor movement, not the replacement workers, have failed to deliver what it promised.

1. Which is precisely why they have no expectation of privacy. Their work environment is the airport, where most of us work. I have had my picture posted on this site, and since I was at work, I have no expectation of privacy.

2. The fact that some non-unionized workers fare better than their unionized counterparts speaks to the fact that the labor movement has, and is succeeding. Delta and FedEx wouldn't be paying as much as they are if it weren't for UPS and WN paying what they are to their unionized employees. And none of us would be making what we are if it weren't for the 2000 NWA contract. DL and FX pay just enough to keep unions out, that's it.

The scabs OTOH fail the entire industry by taking away decades of bargaining in one shameful, disgraceful move.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I dont give a crap what the public or anyone thinks of unions, if you are a union member and you scab, you bring upon yourself the treatment that you deserve.

Its ok for them to enjoy the benefits of the people who went on strike to achieve while they stabbed their brothers and sisters in the back, nope, thats not ok.

sorry but membership in a labor union is VOLUNTARY which means unions have to deliver value TODAY.
The American people don't support what unions are delivering today.
The fact that you don't care what they think while engage in and support a campaign to turn the movement around indicates that we should put your name on the list of pallbearers who will throw the first shovelful of dirt on the casket.

1. Which is precisely why they have no expectation of privacy. Their work environment is the airport, where most of us work. I have had my picture posted on this site, and since I was at work, I have no expectation of privacy.

2. The fact that some non-unionized workers fare better than their unionized counterparts speaks to the fact that the labor movement has, and is succeeding. Delta and FedEx wouldn't be paying as much as they are if it weren't for UPS and WN paying what they are to their unionized employees. And none of us would be making what we are if it weren't for the 2000 NWA contract. DL and FX pay just enough to keep unions out, that's it.

The scabs OTOH fail the entire industry by taking away decades of bargaining in one shameful, disgraceful move.

what?

If the labor movement was succeeding, there wouldn't be workers at non-union companies who earn better than their unionized peers.

Full stop. Forget the double talk. That is a fact.

And quit trying to blame the failure of the movement on those who chose to make the best economic decision for their own lives.

And it also explains why the labor movement is dying; in the meantime, we have endless conversations on here about which labor union will do better with no real admission that some of the best paid employees in the business and country checked the "none of the above" box.

 

[700UW]

Under the RLA and most airline contracts a condition of employment is joining the union, and pay dues.

Under Beck vs CWA and in Machinists vs Whirlpool, you can become a dues objector, but you still have to pay an equivalency fee which is to pay for whats germane to the CBA to pay for its enforcement and negotiation.

Bottom line is if you solidarity, not stabbing your brothers and sisters in the back.

So take your opinion and shove it, how do you like that?

 

[blue collar]

what?

If the labor movement was succeeding, there wouldn't be workers at non-union companies who earn better than their unionized peers.

Full stop. Forget the double talk. That is a fact.

And quit trying to blame the failure of the movement on those who chose to make the best economic decision for their own lives.

And it also explains why the labor movement is dying; in the meantime, we have endless conversations on here about which labor union will do better with no real admission that some of the best paid employees in the business and country checked the "none of the above" box.

Maybe to you, the labor movement succeeding is everyone, everywhere being unionized. That isn't what I consider as the labor movement succeeding. The purpose of the labor movement is to get good pay and benefits, and for all workers to have a 'voice'. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the pay at DL and FX is based upon their union counterparts at WN and UPS,(you know, the unionized carriers who are receiving THE top pay in their respective industries). IOW, they pay just enough to keep the unions out, which is admittedly a decent wage. I'm not blaming the 'failure' of the movement on scabs, I'm just saying they're failures, period. Right now, the labor movement is going through changes, and they are due to the fact that the afl-cio and the figureheads at the higher levels of these unions have become out of touch with their members. As far as the double-speak, I learned all I know from Spectator.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Under the RLA and most airline contracts a condition of employment is joining the union, and pay dues.

Under Beck vs CWA and in Machinists vs Whirlpool, you can become a dues objector, but you still have to pay an equivalency fee which is to pay for whats germane to the CBA to pay for its enforcement and negotiation.

Bottom line is if you solidarity, not stabbing your brothers and sisters in the back.

So take your opinion and shove it, how do you like that?

but the whole reason replacement workers have existed is because the union-mgmt. relationship failed and some workers chose to work anyway - and since htat has happened multiple times, I have a hard time understanding how a broken system should be blamed on a few people.

If it happened one or two times, then yes, you look at the situation.
If something happens repeatedly, then the system itself is broken.
Continuing to blame individuals for a broken system - in this case the labor movement that can't convince people to remain in it only shows how far a real solution is from actually happening.

Tell you what... I'll stop talking about the failed labor movement if you can tell me 3 solid steps labor unions have taken in the airline industry to reverse the loss of jobs and demonstrate that those steps are working.

You can work together on this exercise.

Maybe to you, the labor movement succeeding is everyone, everywhere being unionized. That isn't what I consider as the labor movement succeeding. The purpose of the labor movement is to get good pay and benefits, and for all workers to have a 'voice'. Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the pay at DL and FX is based upon their union counterparts at WN and UPS,(you know, the unionized carriers who are receiving THE top pay in their respective industries). IOW, they pay just enough to keep the unions out, which is admittedly a decent wage. I'm not blaming the 'failure' of the movement on scabs, I'm just saying they're failures, period. Right now, the labor movement is going through changes, and they are due to the fact that the afl-cio and the figureheads at the higher levels of these unions have become out of touch with their members. As far as the double-speak, I learned all I know from Spectator.

But WN isn't DL's most direct peer because WN doesn't have the same cost structure. WN has succeeded in the past because it did things differently and was successful. I don't slight WN for anything they or their people have achieved... but they don't think they are a legacy airline and neither does anyone who honestly understands them.

But it still doesn't change that DL's employees DO make more than their peers at other network/legacy carriers that are unionized.

Argue about the real comparison that does exist.

Does it put any more money in the back pocket of a unionized employee at another carrier to know that DL is paying a higher salary to their counterpart at DL just to "keep the unions out?"

A minute ago it was that non-union airlines have what they have because of the sacrifices of labor and now you want to say that the non-union employees make more because their employers want to keep the unions out? Which is it, really?

I don't think anyone really cares so long as they receive the highest pay.

 

[700UW]

Corporations are greedy, thats the main reason why a strike occurs.

You can post and post and post, you wont change my thoughts about unions and labor relations, I lived it, you didnt.

 

[robbedagain]

ive read multiple times that most of the pays from non union dl and fx are comparable to wn and fx im not sure what jb pays their employees but im pretty sure its also on par with say what dl fx ups and wn all pay their employees

 

[blue collar]

But WN isn't DL's most direct peer because WN doesn't have the same cost structure. WN has succeeded in the past because it did things differently and was successful. I don't slight WN for anything they or their people have achieved... but they don't think they are a legacy airline and neither does anyone who honestly understands them.

But it still doesn't change that DL's employees DO make more than their peers at other network/legacy carriers that are unionized.

Argue about the real comparison that does exist.

Does it put any more money in the back pocket of a unionized employee at another carrier to know that DL is paying a higher salary to their counterpart at DL just to "keep the unions out?"

A minute ago it was that non-union airlines have what they have because of the sacrifices of labor and now you want to say that the non-union employees make more because their employers want to keep the unions out? Which is it, really?

I don't think anyone really cares so long as they receive the highest pay.

You're too hung up on legacy/non legacy. They're both passenger airlines, stop trying to justify it with qualifiers.

And yes, we all make more because of the sacrifices of labor, that doesn't pertain to just FX and DL only. They (FX and DL) have decent compensation due to trying to keep unions out.

 

[737823]

Under the RLA and most airline contracts a condition of employment is joining the union, and pay dues.

Under Beck vs CWA and in Machinists vs Whirlpool, you can become a dues objector, but you still have to pay an equivalency fee which is to pay for whats germane to the CBA to pay for its enforcement and negotiation.

Bottom line is if you solidarity, not stabbing your brothers and sisters in the back.

So take your opinion and shove it, how do you like that?

Funny, you always tout that union membership isn't imposed on anyone and they can simply become a dues objector and "only pay what is germane to the CBA". Dues objector is not a member.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

The Rights of Railway or Airline Employees
Private railway and airline employees are covered by the Railway Labor Act (RLA). 45 U.S.C. §§ 151-188. They are not protected by state “Right to Work” laws. See Railway Employees’ Dep’t v. Hanson, 351 U.S. 225 (1956). However, they cannot be forced to join a union unless the collective bargaining agreement contains a provision that requires union membership or dues as a requirement of employment. Regardless, railway and airline unions cannot compel nonmember employees to contribute dues toward a political cause. See Ellis v. BRAC, 466 U.S. 435 (1984). Nonmembers may object to their dues being used for anything other than those expenses directly related to bargaining and administrative costs. Int’l Ass’n of Machinists v. Street, 367 U.S. 740, 774-75 (1961).

 

[WorldTraveler]

Corporations are greedy, thats the main reason why a strike occurs.

You can post and post and post, you wont change my thoughts about unions and labor relations, I lived it, you didnt.

I don't expect I will... and the same is probably also true... so why do you or I participate but for those who stop in to read and because we enjoy the debate.

ive read multiple times that most of the pays from non union dl and fx are comparable to wn and fx im not sure what jb pays their employees but im pretty sure its also on par with say what dl fx ups and wn all pay their employees

but if non-union carriers pay "comparable" wages and the employees don't have to belong to union, those employees clearly don't see the value of being in a union.

You're too hung up on legacy/non legacy. They're both passenger airlines, stop trying to justify it with qualifiers.

And yes, we all make more because of the sacrifices of labor, that doesn't pertain to just FX and DL only. They (FX and DL) have decent compensation due to trying to keep unions out.

WN has been the most successful airline in the history of aviation... bar none and I certainly don't slight them of anything they have accomplished. They have spawned airlines around the world that have tried to copy their model and some of them have become very successful.

But they have used a business model that is far different from network/legacy airlines, including the fact that they do not have anywhere near the pension obligations that older carriers do.
You can choose to lump WN and B6 in the same mold as the legacy carriers but there are very real differences that very much do translate into the ability of each company to be profitable.

It also doesn't change that there are non-union employees who make more than their peers at unionized peers at other legacy airlines - so your whole argument falls apart.

As much as it hurts to hear, union membership is an economic value decision and for many Americans, unions simply don't deliver the value they need to justify membership.

 

[blue collar]

But they have used a business model that is far different from network/legacy airlines, including the fact that they do not have anywhere near the pension obligations that older carriers do.
You can choose to lump WN and B6 in the same mold as the legacy carriers but there are very real differences that very much do translate into the ability of each company to be profitable.

It also doesn't change that there are non-union employees who make more than their peers at unionized peers at other legacy airlines - so your whole argument falls apart.

As much as it hurts to hear, union membership is an economic value decision and for many Americans, unions simply don't deliver the value they need to justify membership.

WN and b6 don't fit your argument, that's why you choose to not use them. They chose the way they set up their business, which is the same business that all of the legacies are in, that's why they should be included.

As much as I don't want to sound like an apologist for substandard CBAs, it is true that each of these carriers went through c11 once, if not twice, and each of these CBAs still lack a lot of what took decades to bargain for. While the hourly rates may not be what DL is paying, they all include scope(kind of a big deal), a grievance procedure, and some have medical premiums a lot less than what DL employees pay.

 

[robbedagain]

I don't expect I will... and the same is probably also true... so why do you or I participate but for those who stop in to read and because we enjoy the debate.


but if non-union carriers pay "comparable" wages and the employees don't have to belong to union, those employees clearly don't see the value of being in a union.



WN has been the most successful airline in the history of aviation... bar none and I certainly don't slight them of anything they have accomplished. They have spawned airlines around the world that have tried to copy their model and some of them have become very successful.

But they have used a business model that is far different from network/legacy airlines, including the fact that they do not have anywhere near the pension obligations that older carriers do.
You can choose to lump WN and B6 in the same mold as the legacy carriers but there are very real differences that very much do translate into the ability of each company to be profitable.

It also doesn't change that there are non-union employees who make more than their peers at unionized peers at other legacy airlines - so your whole argument falls apart.

As much as it hurts to hear, union membership is an economic value decision and for many Americans, unions simply don't deliver the value they need to justify membership.

lets just say for ex lets say DL is hurting bad and they file CH11 a second time... they come to the employees and say well this is what we will do... close all cities but our hubs of ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW, we will knock your pay down to say 17 an hr and your medical will go up your travel benes will be harder.... and we will furlough 15k through the system it would not be any trouble for DL to do just that. they can do that today if they chose to do so.. the only group thats union are the pilots and they went as far as they could in working with nwa pilots and it still took them a long time to get them in the same cockpit
if the F/a s do vote in the union oviously would say yes we value the union if the rampers do the same then the same can be said.... i know a few at dl at my station and in my 2 other cities ive worked in that had said they wish they were union