More MEM Cuts

[WorldTraveler]

Once again another thread hijacked by WT and joshie.

pot meet kettle.
He was dead on about you not wanting to hear the whole side of the story - which didn't seem to be a concern of yours on page 1 of this thread.

I think it is Joshie plus 1 in this round.

 

[737823]

Robert Roach interview at New York AFL-CIO:

Spreading lies that DL ready reserves do not get wage increases, have no advancement opportunities, making an emotional appeal that DL is "Unamerican" by having ready reserve and being non-union. He conveniently neglects that his very own union encouraged, facilitated, and ratified in January 2010-a full ten months before this interview regarding DL. The IAM will likely offer ready reserve in the PCE negotiations at UAL, just among the other gifts to the company they offer to keep dues payers on the payroll.

See article 26: http://www.iam141.or...014clerical.pdf

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

you go, Josh.

 

[Kev3188]

Robert Roach interview at New York AFL-CIO:

Spreading lies that DL ready reserves do not get wage increases, have no advancement opportunities, making an emotional appeal that DL is "Unamerican" by having ready reserve and being non-union. He conveniently neglects that his very own union encouraged, facilitated, and ratified in January 2010-a full ten months before this interview regarding DL. The IAM will likely offer ready reserve in the PCE negotiations at UAL, just among the other gifts to the company they offer to keep dues payers on the payroll.

See article 26: http://www.iam141.or...014clerical.pdf

Josh

As for raises, that's actually true. The ready reserve pay scale has one step, and no one ever progresses above it, regardless of how long they've been in the position. The rate itself increases occasionally (it goes up in Jan. when everyone else's does), but that's it. He's also right about no benefits. Sure, they get pass travel, but if someone is struggling to get by, going on vacation is at the bottom of the list.

Regarding advancement: The program has grown exponentially in the last few years. That's not hyperbolic labor rhetoric, that's the term a (now retired) DL SVP used to describe it. What does that have to do with advancement? Well, it used to be that someone got in the door as a Ready Reserve (or TPT, as DL used to call it), then when a benefitted opening came up, they were able to move into it. NW had a similar program- it's how I was hired.

The difference today is that not only is all new hiring in ACS done via the program, so too is almost all backfilling of vacated positions. Sure, there are outlier examples (LGA becoming a hub, for example), but for the most part, any local movement isn't going to happen, and transfer opportunities to other cities to get a benefitted spot aren't that frequent.

Roach doesn't mention it, but one of the knock-on effects of the latter is that when you finally get a good employee, they get frustrated and wind up leaving as soon as an opening somewhere else comes available. In my city's case, we've said goodbye to 2 extremely good workers recently that didn't want to leave, but were tired of being over promised and under delivered to. These guys would've been here for the long haul, and the company would've received a decent return on their investment in them. Instead, we're going short again, and scrambling to hire. With the former, station performance can suffer, and impact the passenger experience (to say nothing of workers getting tore up). And with the lack of benefits, and low pay, we're not competing with, say, a utility for a career minded worker; we're competing with Target or even Subway. Of course, that also puts pressure on mgmt. to find a "right now" candidate, instead of holding out for the most competitive one, and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Roach mentioned downward pressure on other carriers. I get you seeing it as hypocrisy, but I see it as evidence of him actually getting something right for once. Will UA's PCE group see this coming up? Dunno, but with DL consistently lowering the bar, who knows? In another thread, WT mentioned pattern bargaining being dead. I claimed it wasn't; it just goes in the wrong direction today. This is a prime example of just that.

He didn't specifically refer to these jobs as "Un-American." Rather, he compared them unfavorably to what he called "good, American jobs," which to him meant a living wage, solid benefits, and so on. I suppose whether or not one disagrees with his assessment depends on what their vision of America is. Do you want a vibrant middle class with decent jobs, good wages, etc., or do you want an entire swath of the populace toiling away at dead-end service sector jobs? I've said it before, but honestly, at the rate we're going, the latter seems to be ruling the day. If this trajectory keeps up, our kids are going to see an America with 3 career paths: Flipping burgers, selling derivatives, and suing people.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
I know it frustrates the heck out of you to see the RR program what it is today and with it the continued shrinkage of FT positions, but you also fail to acknowledge how much better of a job DL has done in protecting the jobs and pay of existing FT employees. Unfortunately it is not possible to do both. DL did launch the assault on ACS employees with 7.5 but labor is a market and DL is running the operation quite successfully with the current staffing DL has. There simply is not a need to pay people more to do a job that others can do just as effectively for less pay. That IS the job market at work.

And keep in mind again that it is REVENUE performance that makes the difference in being able to increase pay. All the good intentions in the world don't matter if you don't have the money to increase pay. There are still real questions of how UA will pay the bill for the pilot agreement that is currently going out for voting - and we haven't even gotten to the rest of the other employee groups.

I would also beg to differ w/ you about the number of RRs that travel.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
I know it frustrates the heck out of you to see the RR program what it is today and with it the continued shrinkage of FT positions, but you also fail to acknowledge how much better of a job DL has done in protecting the jobs and pay of existing FT employees.

I don't fail to acknowledge it; I fundamentally disagree with your theory.

 

[WorldTraveler]

....yet there is an abundance of data to show that DL ACS employees have the highest average salaries compared to your network airline peers.

Take a look at MIT's airline data project if you have doubts.

 

[Kev3188]

Using DL's own #'s, we're in second. But that and actual job numbers are two different things.

Your theory of protecting existing jobs might look nice from an observer's perch on another continent; it doesn't comport with reality.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL hasn't said it intends to compensate its employees at industry-leading rates.. just average or better. If they are no. 2, then they have succeeded.

When you factor in profit sharing for this year - which will be far larger for DL employees than any other network airline - and probably any other airline in the US of any stripe - the calculations still look differently.

As for specific numbers, show me any data that shows that DL has cut any more jobs than its peers. In fact, it has been a whole lot less than its peers - in part because 7.5 did alot of the dirty work almost 20 years ago.

The simple reality is that DL has maintained frontline positions since 2001 better than its peers and DOT data does indeed show that - and I can see those numbers just as clearly from the moon as I can from the upper midwest of the US.

 

[Kev3188]

DL hasn't said it intends to compensate its employees at industry-leading rates.. just average or better. If they are no. 2, then they have succeeded.

That's right; Industry Standard. The self-named "World's greatest airline" strives for merely average. Hurray!

As for specific numbers, show me any data that shows that DL has cut any more jobs than its peers. In fact, it has been a whole lot less than its peers - in part because 7.5 did alot of the dirty work almost 20 years ago.

You said they protect existing benefitted positions. They don't.

 

[737823]

As for raises, that's actually true. The ready reserve pay scale has one step, and no one ever progresses above it, regardless of how long they've been in the position. The rate itself increases occasionally (it goes up in Jan. when everyone else's does), but that's it. He's also right about no benefits. Sure, they get pass travel, but if someone is struggling to get by, going on vacation is at the bottom of the list.

I thought DL gives wage increases each year and the maximum annual increase gets announced and its different for each employee depending on their performance review. No? I have a very difficult time believing DL doesn't increase wages for RRs, they are a participant in the labor market which is a competitive market and they are, by definition price takers like other employers. So are you saying since DL started RR no one has ever gotten a pay raise? DL pays people the same in November 2012 as they did in 2010? 2008? 2007? Ok, so if you are saying candidates at DL are also applying at CVS, Target, Subway, supermarkets, etc they too have received pay increases so it would be no different at DL. Like I said I find that very hard to believe. It's deceiving and not entirely true at best for him to imply that DL picks these people up at a given hourly rate and keeps them stuck at it for years. What about profit sharing? That impacts their total compensation too.

Regarding advancement: The program has grown exponentially in the last few years. That's not hyperbolic labor rhetoric, that's the term a (now retired) DL SVP used to describe it. What does that have to do with advancement? Well, it used to be that someone got in the door as a Ready Reserve (or TPT, as DL used to call it), then when a benefitted opening came up, they were able to move into it. NW had a similar program- it's how I was hired.

The difference today is that not only is all new hiring in ACS done via the program, so too is almost all backfilling of vacated positions. Sure, there are outlier examples (LGA becoming a hub, for example), but for the most part, any local movement isn't going to happen, and transfer opportunities to other cities to get a benefitted spot aren't that frequent.

No disagreement from me here but how many other carriers are hiring full-time benefited workers at outstations? UA hires part-time and temporary part-time and cross utilizes extensively and this at the stations that are actually staffed with UAL employees. Plenty of UA stations have been transitioned to Express flying and when that happens the mainline employees leave. To say there are no opportunities for advancement is untrue, DL has publicly said in their counterpoint published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune that "More than 800 Ready Reserve employees moved into open full-time jobs in 2011.Several hundred more have declined the opportunity to bid for full-time openings because they enjoy the flexibility of being in the Ready Reserve program." (http://www.startribu...63.html?refer=y)

Are the opportunities as regular as you and others would like to see? Probably not but its entirely untrue to say they do not exist and is misleading.

Roach doesn't mention it, but one of the knock-on effects of the latter is that when you finally get a good employee, they get frustrated and wind up leaving as soon as an opening somewhere else comes available. In my city's case, we've said goodbye to 2 extremely good workers recently that didn't want to leave, but were tired of being over promised and under delivered to. These guys would've been here for the long haul, and the company would've received a decent return on their investment in them. Instead, we're going short again, and scrambling to hire. With the former, station performance can suffer, and impact the passenger experience (to say nothing of workers getting tore up). And with the lack of benefits, and low pay, we're not competing with, say, a utility for a career minded worker; we're competing with Target or even Subway. Of course, that also puts pressure on mgmt. to find a "right now" candidate, instead of holding out for the most competitive one, and it becomes a vicious cycle.

That clearly is a weakness in DLs hiring process, they aren't filling the positions quickly enough and aren't screening the right people then. As the counterpoint piece said, people know what they are getting into when they are hired. They know it is a temporary/seasonal part-time position with limited benefits. The opportunity for upward mobility exits, but like any-other job it is NOT guaranteed. I know this maybe difficult for you to understand coming from a culture where seniority dictates everything but for most people it is based on your performance. And of course management and HR are not always the best at detecting this an awarding promotions to the correct people, you have no disagreement from me there. I just don't subscribe to the notion that because someone has been at an employer xx number of years they are entitled to special privileges based on that fact alone.

Roach mentioned downward pressure on other carriers. I get you seeing it as hypocrisy, but I see it as evidence of him actually getting something right for once. Will UA's PCE group see this coming up? Dunno, but with DL consistently lowering the bar, who knows? In another thread, WT mentioned pattern bargaining being dead. I claimed it wasn't; it just goes in the wrong direction today. This is a prime example of just that.

Perhaps, but again the IAM did add this language to the agreement. Whether the company initiated it or the IAM negotiating team did or what their motives were we will never know. Doesn't change the fact that they added it, the negotiating team sent it to the membership and the membership ratified it doesn't change the fact. You and 700 can keep saying "this is new language" or "not many people are covered under the language" or "the membership ratified it, the company wanted it added" but it doesn't change the fact. Fact is it is an identical arrangement and the same offering you both decry at DL except it was added by the union. And as you have said before, its probably unreasonable to expect the program to go away at DL since some people LIKE what it offers and it fills a large part of DL's staffing needs. You mentioned that you would like to see limits and restrictions in place, but realize the IAM/HA agreement provides NO limit on the number part-time reserves since they do not count to the part-time ratio.

UA may add it. Who knows. It does seem since the CO merger they have adjusted the schedules and operations better to align demand and capacity, maybe they have a need for variable staffing too. At year end 2011 UCH had just over 88,000 employees and standalone United had just 84,000 in 2001. With a larger and more complex operation today, they likely are looking to keep costs in line whie providing adequate support for their operation at the same time. We'll have to wait and see, doesn't seem they are having much movement on the negotiations the two sides must be far apart.

He didn't specifically refer to these jobs as "Un-American." Rather, he compared them unfavorably to what he called "good, American jobs," which to him meant a living wage, solid benefits, and so on. I suppose whether or not one disagrees with his assessment depends on what their vision of America is. Do you want a vibrant middle class with decent jobs, good wages, etc., or do you want an entire swath of the populace toiling away at dead-end service sector jobs? I've said it before, but honestly, at the rate we're going, the latter seems to be ruling the day. If this trajectory keeps up, our kids are going to see an America with 3 career paths: Flipping burgers, selling derivatives, and suing people.

It's an entirely different discussion, but it's an emotional appeal technique he is trying to use to scare and intimidate people to believe ready reserve means the end of America or make people feel guilty for no reason. Yes jobs today are different than they were 30 years ago that's an accepted fact. DL has ready reserve, colleges have adjunct professors, some law school grads are working as paralegals, plenty of industries have B-scales and other benefits that have been phased out. Times change, just because something worked before doesn't mean it will in the future. Look at all the new opportunities and industries available today that weren't around 30 years ago. The fact is companies are operating more efficiently today than ever before, UAL no longer needs the 100,000+ workers they had in the 1990s, GM no longer needs to employ 500,000+ workers either. Times change, you have to face the fact, accept it and move on.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's right; Industry Standard. The self-named "World's greatest airline" strives for merely average. Hurray!

when did DL say they were the "world's greatest airline?"

DL promises average or better and is currently overdelivering.

They recognize that it is far better to underpromise and overdeliver than the other way around.

You said they protect existing benefitted positions. They don't.

I said better than their peers.
Show me some data that they don't.
Data and statistics exist precisely because no one can have an accurate perspective from multiple vantage points.

DOT and SEC data shows employment statistics and average salaries by workgroup. That data clearly DOES show that DL protects jobs on average better than its peers.

You clearly are focusing on a few exceptions that you know about w/o the perspective of what happens elsewhere... and even if DL does things differently from other airlines, what DL does IS in line w/ the majority of what American business does, esp. w/ relation to having set performance expectations and holding people to them, something unions have succeeded in great measure from doing.

You have said that NW employees did not have performance evaluations after their initial several months of employment. What kind of incentive is there to do an even half-way decent job if you know all you have to do is stay alive and show up for work? Not everyone has the drive or convictions that you do, Kev.

Yes jobs today are different than they were 30 years ago that's an accepted fact. DL has ready reserve, colleges have adjunct professors, some law school grads are working as paralegals, plenty of industries have B-scales and other benefits that have been phased out. Times change, just because something worked before doesn't mean it will in the future. Look at all the new opportunities and industries available today that weren't around 30 years ago. The fact is companies are operating more efficiently today than ever before, UAL no longer needs the 100,000+ workers they had in the 1990s, GM no longer needs to employ 500,000+ workers either. Times change, you have to face the fact, accept it and move on.

Josh

highly accurate... and it is precisely the fact that unions do not think towards the future and adapt that they have consistently been beat back by mgmt who does and will continue to think about the future.

 

[Kev3188]

I thought DL gives wage increases each year and the maximum annual increase gets announced and its different for each employee depending on their performance review. No?

No. For frontline employees, there is an increase each year (or step). To reach the top of the scale takes 11 years. That happens outside of performance reviews.

Separately, each year DL takes the rates at other "peer" carriers (they only use top-of-scale rates, BTW), and averages. From that number, the come up with an industry average, which is then used to either increase or decrease the base rates at each step. Furthermore, they do not unilaterally impose the same percentage increase/decrease on all steps. For example, the increase coming in January is a 4% raise for the top step. All other steps will only see 2%.

That said, merit employees (now as management in the rest of the world) *do* have a portion of their pay predicated on performance. Management has pay grades (7, 7S, 8, etc), with each grade having it's own pay bandwidth.

I have a very difficult time believing DL doesn't increase wages for RRs, they are a participant in the labor market which is a competitive market and they are, by definition price takers like other employers. So are you saying since DL started RR no one has ever gotten a pay raise? DL pays people the same in November 2012 as they did in 2010? 2008? 2007? Ok, so if you are saying candidates at DL are also applying at CVS, Target, Subway, supermarkets, etc they too have received pay increases so it would be no different at DL. Like I said I find that very hard to believe. It's deceiving and not entirely true at best for him to imply that DL picks these people up at a given hourly rate and keeps them stuck at it for years. What about profit sharing? That impacts their total compensation too.

I must not have been clear. For the Ready Reserve group, there is one step on the payscale. You peak at your 1st anniversary. That's it. There is no progression after that based on tenure, performance, whatever. Whatever that wage may currently be is what they all get. However, as I noted earlier, that rate itself has increased. It will be going up on Jan. 1st when everyone's kicks in.

No disagreement from me here but how many other carriers are hiring full-time benefited workers at outstations? UA hires part-time and temporary part-time and cross utilizes extensively and this at the stations that are actually staffed with UAL employees.

Dunno. BTW, this isn't an "outstation" thing; it's the same story in the hubs. We've discussed cross-utilization before; NW had it pre-BK, and DL doesn't. They'd rather have vendors instead. Shame really. It can be really efficient when done correctly.

DL has publicly said in their counterpoint published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune that "More than 800 Ready Reserve employees moved into open full-time jobs in 2011.Several hundred more have declined the opportunity to bid for full-time openings because they enjoy the flexibility of being in the Ready Reserve program." (http://www.startribu...63.html?refer=y)
...Are the opportunities as regular as you and others would like to see? Probably not but its entirely untrue to say they do not exist and is misleading.

Yeah, I know. I read it. That counterpoint was the same boilerplate talking points we always hear. It's like corp comm handed him a sheet to put his name on. Disappointing, really. He's fairly articulate, and really shoulda used his own words.

I didn't say they don't exist; I said they're few and far between, and diminishing with each passing day.

That clearly is a weakness in DLs hiring process, they aren't filling the positions quickly enough and aren't screening the right people then. As the counterpoint piece said, people know what they are getting into when they are hired. They know it is a temporary/seasonal part-time position with limited benefits.

Unless they've been told otherwise in the screening and/or interview process. Doesn't help that DL outsources most of that... Frankly, there are also some people in mgmt. at the station level that simply shouldn't be. One of the company's stated goals for 2012 was to "increase bench strength in middle mgmt." We'll see...

The opportunity for upward mobility exits, but like any-other job it is NOT guaranteed. I know this maybe difficult for you to understand coming from a culture where seniority dictates everything but for most people it is based on your performance. And of course management and HR are not always the best at detecting this an awarding promotions to the correct people, you have no disagreement from me there. I just don't subscribe to the notion that because someone has been at an employer xx number of years they are entitled to special privileges based on that fact alone.

..And I would agree with you... if these were promotions per se. We're talking about a lateral move job-wise.

Perhaps, but again the IAM did add this language to the agreement. Whether the company initiated it or the IAM negotiating team did or what their motives were we will never know. Doesn't change the fact that they added it, the negotiating team sent it to the membership and the membership ratified it doesn't change the fact. You and 700 can keep saying "this is new language" or "not many people are covered under the agreement" or "the membership ratified it, the company wanted it added" but it doesn't change the fact. Fact is it is an identical arrangement to what the same offering you both decry at DL except it was added by the union.

Well, they *did* ratify it. It is what it is. If I was at HA, my objection would've been with the negotiators even leaving it on the table in the first place.

And as you have said before, its probably unreasonable to expect the program to go away at DL since some people LIKE what it offers and it fills a large part of DL's staffing needs. You mentioned that you would like to see limits and restrictions in place,

Correct.

 

[Kev3188]

but realize the IAM/HA agreement provides NO limit on the number part-time reserves since they do not count to the part-time ratio.

Like I said before, that's just lazy language writing, then.

UA may add it. Who knows. It does seem since the CO merger they have adjusted the schedules and operations better to align demand and capacity, maybe they have a need for variable staffing too. At year end 2011 UCH had just over 88,000 employees and standalone United had just 84,000 in 2001. With a larger and more complex operation today, they likely are looking to keep costs in line whie providing adequate support for their operation at the same time. We'll have to wait and see, doesn't seem they are having much movement on the negotiations the two sides must be far apart.

I think the ramp is in mediation, but don't quote me on that.

It's an entirely different discussion, but it's an emotional appeal technique he is trying to use to scare and intimidate people to believe ready reserve means the end of America or make people feel guilty for no reason.

I don't think it's a sign of the apocalypse, but it *is* a symptom (or example) of a larger disease afflicting the U.S.

Yes jobs today are different than they were 30 years ago that's an accepted fact. DL has ready reserve, colleges have adjunct professors, some law school grads are working as paralegals, plenty of industries have B-scales and other benefits that have been phased out. Times change, just because something worked before doesn't mean it will in the future. Look at all the new opportunities and industries available today that weren't around 30 years ago. The fact is companies are operating more efficiently today than ever before, UAL no longer needs the 100,000+ workers they had in the 1990s, GM no longer needs to employ 500,00+ workers either. Times change, you have to face the fact, accept it and move on.

Pre-merger UAL didn't need that many; they had shrunk something like 20%.

Nothing wrong with adapting; where I draw the line is when that becomes a euphemism for the erosion of middle class standards of living in this country.

 

[Kev3188]

when did DL say they were the "world's greatest airline?"

You're kidding right?

said better than their peers.
Show me some data that they don't.

We've already discussed this in a now closed thread. You know that DL reports FTE's w/o a breakdown of FT/PT/ready Reserve. If a benefitted position ceases to exists, but is backfilled with ready reserves, the overall numbers reported won't reflect that lack of "protection." We've also discussed that I can see that data, and you have acknowledged that you cannot.

You are again trying use a data point to draw a false conclusion in an deliberate attempt to deceive.

You clearly are focusing on a few exceptions that you know about w/o the perspective of what happens elsewhere... and even if DL does things differently from other airlines, what DL does IS in line w/ the majority of what American business does, esp. w/ relation to having set performance expectations and holding people to them, something unions have succeeded in great measure from doing.

You assume I exist in a vacuum.

You have said that NW employees did not have performance evaluations after their initial several months of employment. What kind of incentive is there to do an even half-way decent job if you know all you have to do is stay alive and show up for work?

Oh, I don't know... Let's see: Work ethic.. pride... the desire to remain continuously employed... Pick one.

What a ridiculously inaccurate assessment. You really have no idea how life at a unionized carrier works, do you?

As for formal evaluations, that's correct. That does *not* mean that were not performance standards that employees were expected to consistently adhere to, and were accountable for.