2015 Fleet Service thread

La Li Lu Le Lo said:
The UNION leaders push the concept of shared sacrifice and "concessions for jobs". This also happens to be the philosophy that lines their pockets. The UNION leadership never participates in these "shared sacrifices" however. Giving UNIONS a large headcount in exchange for working on the cheap does NOT benefit the rank and file workers in the membership.
 
Working for less pay and benefits so you can keep the people employed at the bottom of the seniority list to make UNION bosses richer is not a good choice for a career rank and file UNION worker.
 
I truly believe that. For lack of a better analogy (and I know this one is terrible) I don't believe in adding poison to the well so everyone can have a drink. Some people just need to go find another well.

La Li you do realize how many thousands of jobs we lost after the Sept 11 attacks right? I personally had 650 Full Timers below me on Sept 11 and still got laid off in October. I was recalled only to be layed off again in 2003. I think if I remember correctly just prior to 9/11 AA employed 120,000 people. They went down to just before the merger to around 80,000. That's 40,000 people in 10 years.

So I'm not sure how you're saying that we gave up pay and benefits for jobs when we lost thousands of jobs? Just before 9/11 Fleet had about 14,000 members. Just before the merger we were at just under 8,000. How many more jobs do you think we should have given up in 2003 or during the Bankruptcy?

http://www.pearsonhighered.com/assets/hip/us/hip_us_pearsonhighered/samplechapter/0205231527.pdf

 

Airlines and aviation
Flights were grounded in various places across the United States and Canada that did not necessarily have the operational support in place, such as dedicated ground crews. A large number of transatlantic flights landed in Gander in Newfoundland and in Halifax, Nova Scotia, with the logistics handled by Transport Canada in Operation Yellow Ribbon. To help with immediate needs for victims' families, United Airlines and American Airlines both provided initial payments of $25,000.[12] The airlines were also required to refund ticket purchases for anyone unable to fly.[12]

 
The 9/11 attacks compounded financial troubles that the airline industry already was experiencing before the attacks. Share prices of airlines and airplane manufacturers plummeted after the attacks. Midway Airlines, already on the brink of bankruptcy, shut down operations almost immediately afterwards. Other airlines were threatened with bankruptcy, and tens of thousands of layoffs were announced in the week following the attacks. To help the industry, the federal government provided an aid package to the industry, including $10 billion in loan guarantees, along with $5 billion for short-term assistance.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_arising_from_the_September_11_attacks


 
The financial crisis of 2007–08, also known as the global financial crisis and 2008 financial crisis, is considered by many economists to have been the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[1][2][3][4]
It threatened the collapse of large financial institutions, which was prevented by the bailout of banks by national governments, but stock markets still dropped worldwide. In many areas, the housing market also suffered, resulting in evictions, foreclosures and prolonged unemployment. The crisis played a significant role in the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in trillions of U.S. dollars, and a downturn in economic activity leading to the 2008–2012 global recession and contributing to the European sovereign-debt crisis.[5][6] The active phase of the crisis, which manifested as a liquidity crisis, can be dated from August 9, 2007, when BNP Paribas terminated withdrawals from three hedge funds citing "a complete evaporation of liquidity".[7]
The bursting of the U.S. (United States) housing bubble, which peaked in 2004,[8] caused the values of securities tied to U.S. real estate pricing to plummet, damaging financial institutions globally.[9][10] The financial crisis was triggered by a complex interplay of policies that encouraged home ownership, providing easier access to loans for subprime borrowers, overvaluation of bundled subprime mortgages based on the theory that housing prices would continue to escalate, questionable trading practices on behalf of both buyers and sellers, compensation structures that prioritize short-term deal flow over long-term value creation, and a lack of adequate capital holdings from banks and insurance companies to back the financial commitments they were making.[11][12][13][14] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period, as credit tightened and international trade declined.[15] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion and institutional bailouts.[16] In the U.S., Congress passed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%9308
 

The runway to the final four

A series of bankruptcies and mergers over the last 12 years has taken what had been 10 major U.S. airlines down to four mega-carriers which dominate the market.

http://money.cnn.com/infographic/news/companies/airline-merger/


 

 

 
 
100,000 airline employees were laid off after 9/11.

Now add in all the other companies that laid off due to the airline industry's cutbacks.
 
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700UW said:
100,000 airline employees were laid off after 9/11.
Now add in all the other companies that laid off due to the airline industry's cutbacks.

Absolutely. Tourism Worldwide also took a massive hit. People were not flying anywhere that wasn't necessary for years.

How in the world was ANY Union in our industry supposed to win under that climate? Not a single one did. Not one.
 
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WeAAsles said:
La Li you do realize how many thousands of jobs we lost after the Sept 11 attacks right? I personally had 650 Full Timers below me on Sept 11 and still got laid off in October. I was recalled only to be layed off again in 2003. I think if I remember correctly just prior to 9/11 AA employed 120,000 people. They went down to just before the merger to around 80,000. That's 40,000 people in 10 years.

So I'm not sure how you're saying that we gave up pay and benefits for jobs when we lost thousands of jobs? Just before 9/11 Fleet had about 14,000 members. Just before the merger we were at just under 8,000. How many more jobs do you think we should have given up in 2003 or during the Bankruptcy?
How many of those layoffs were due to TWA crossover?
 
How many flights were lost due to lack of manpower after those layoffs?
 
What you should be asking yourself is if they can lay off 40K and still keep operations going how oversaturated was the labor pool to begin with?
 
The fact is American Airlines needs X amount of people to run an airline. Contractual concessions are not going to change that. The only thing they are going to do is lessen the employees living standard through the life of the contract (or longer!!!!!!!!) and put money in the companies pocket (just as we are seeing now). If they can't offer fair compensation to the standard that has been set for that type of work then they don't need to be in business.
 
Concessions bought a lot of shiny new airplanes and record profits for the company. What did it do for the employee? I mean besides a "frozen" retirement and lower pay from a company that has been stonewalling contract negotiations?
 
You sell it however you want WeAAsles but everyone on here knows the first order of propaganda the UNION uses to sell a concessionary contract is a fear campaign based on job security and reduced headcount.  It is their go to and it is very effective.
 
Remember "Shared Sacrifice"? Who exactly did the employees share it with?
 
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La Li Lu Le Lo said:
How many of those layoffs were due to TWA crossover?
 
How many flights were lost due to lack of manpower after those layoffs?
 
What you should be asking yourself is if they can lay off 40K and still keep operations going how oversaturated was the labor pool to begin with?
 
The fact is American Airlines needs X amount of people to run an airline. Contractual concessions are not going to change that. The only thing they are going to do is lessen the employees living standard through the life of the contract (or longer!!!!!!!!) and put money in the companies pocket (just as we are seeing now). If they can't offer fair compensation to the standard that has been set for that type of work then they don't need to be in business.
 
Concessions bought a lot of shiny new airplanes and record profits for the company. What did it do for the employee? I mean besides a "frozen" retirement and lower pay from a company that has been stonewalling contract negotiations?
 
You sell it however you want WeAAsles but everyone on here knows the first order of propaganda the UNION uses to sell a concessionary contract is a fear campaign based on job security and reduced headcount.  It is their go to and it is very effective.
 
Remember "Shared Sacrifice"? Who exactly did the employees share it with?


Ok some things you're leaving out here. AA only started to gain those shiny new airplanes after they placed an order "finally" for new airplanes just before they entered Bankruptcy. But the fact is that between 2001 and 2011 AA reduced the mainline fleet by around 350 airplanes. Some of that was old TWA planes but they also got rid of over time all the 727's and F-100's they had in their fleet, with no replacements. La Li Jobs were lost because the airline shrunk. Now that we are growing again they are on a hiring tear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_fleet

Let's also not forget about the price of oil which translates into Jet Fuel. On July 11, 2008 the peak price of the 2000's hit $147.27. That fact and a weak environment for fares to cover those costs absolutely set the course. And the reason why I transferred to MIA in 2011 when I had the opportunity because of the new bag delivery system. I knew what was coming and wanted to make sure I set myself up in what I believed would be the safest place to be.

BTW I say pack em in like Sardines in a can if they don't want to pay more for the privilege (not commodity) of flying. I don't fly anymore myself.
 
In my case, after I recently boarded an American (AAL - Get Report) Airbus A319, I was amazed to find myself in a seat with 30-inch pitch. Having lived in hubs operated by American or predecessor US Airways for the past 28 years, I have flown hundreds of American and US Airways flights but never had so little legroom. Generally, in my experience, coach legroom is 31 or 32 inches.
Inspired to check on Seatguru.com, I learned that American flies A319s with a 30-inch pitch and a 17.7-inch width in coach. (Although American has two A319 versions, most have the smaller seats, a spokesman told me).

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13484120/1/note-to-airlines-how-about-disclosing-seat-size-too.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO


Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not a fan of the current progression of the company in their dealings with us. Particularly the no gain sharing formula, no 4% raise, no bonus for tremendous profits, the possible theft of our pre funding match and even the thought of wanting to introduce concessions for anything into our talks. But I also believe eventually it's all going to work out in time.   
 
 
WeAAsles said:
La Li Jobs were lost because the airline shrunk. Now that we are growing again they are on a hiring tear.
Because they need X amount of people to keep the airline running. Higher loads, more aircraft, more personnel. Concessions won't change that fact so why give them.
 
WeAAsles said:
Let's also not forget about the price of oil which translates into Jet Fuel. On July 11, 2008 the peak price of the 2000's hit $147.27. That fact and a weak environment for fares to cover those costs absolutely set the course.
Weak fare environments were a result of years of employees subsidizing ticket costs (through sham cost cutting bankruptcies) so airlines could undercut each other. That existed long before the "oil crisis".
 
WeAAsles said:
BTW I say pack em in like Sardines in a can if they don't want to pay more for the privilege (not commodity) of flying. I don't fly anymore myself.
I can't blame you.
 
WeAAsles said:
Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not a fan of the current progression of the company in their dealings with us. Particularly the no gain sharing formula, no 4% raise, no bonus for tremendous profits, the possible theft of our pre funding match and even the thought of wanting to introduce concessions for anything into our talks. But I also believe eventually it's all going to work out in time.  
I believe the company is shaping their employee cost to their whim by chipping away at the contract piece by piece and the TWU is the chisel they are using to do it.
 
You say you believe eventually it's all going to work out in time. I don't believe that at all. I hope I am wrong. I will say AA employment under the TWU flag has been toxic for 15 years that I know of. 15 years WeAAsles! 15 YEARS! That is almost half of most peoples careers. How much longer should the membership give TWU to get it right?
 
La Li Lu Le Lo said:
Because they need X amount of people to keep the airline running. Higher loads, more aircraft, more personnel. Concessions won't change that fact so why give them.
 

Weak fare environments were a result of years of employees subsidizing ticket costs (through sham cost cutting bankruptcies) so airlines could undercut each other. That existed long before the "oil crisis".
 

I can't blame you.
 

I believe the company is shaping their employee cost to their whim by chipping away at the contract piece by piece and the TWU is the chisel they are using to do it.
 
You say you believe eventually it's all going to work out in time. I don't believe that at all. I hope I am wrong. I will say AA employment under the TWU flag has been toxic for 15 years that I know of. 15 years WeAAsles! 15 YEARS! That is almost half of most peoples careers. How much longer should the membership give TWU to get it right?
You know what? After doing a little bit of a rethink maybe you're right. The TWU does stink. Of course that along with EVERY other Union in our industry as well since the same things happened to them. Let's also not fail to mention many State and Municipal Unions as well who had things taken away from them in the last decade. Let's see UAW being basically forced to that second tier item they fought against. CWA with the cable companies they represent. And I'm sure if YOU search you would find so many others? Oh how about that massive to do in Wisconsin?

You know what. I bet if all of these Unions just didn't exist the World would have been a much rosier place and we would have been given so many wonderful goodies from all of those CEO's, Shareholders, Banks and Politicians? Yep. I'm absolutely sure of that.
 
WeAAsles said:
You know what? After doing a little bit of a rethink maybe you're right. The TWU does stink. Of course that along with EVERY other Union in our industry as well since the same things happened to them. Let's also not fail to mention many State and Municipal Unions as well who had things taken away from them in the last decade. Let's see UAW being basically forced to that second tier item they fought against. CWA with the cable companies they represent. And I'm sure if YOU search you would find so many others? Oh how about that massive to do in Wisconsin?

You know what. I bet if all of these Unions just didn't exist the World would have been a much rosier place and we would have been given so many wonderful goodies from all of those CEO's, Shareholders, Banks and Politicians? Yep. I'm absolutely sure of that.
That is the price you pay for having international UNIONS and leadership that is all but untouchable by the rank and file.
 
You think I am anti UNION, that is simply not the case. I just believe supporting this UNION with it's current organizational structure is a dead end.
 
Despite what may believe there are a lot of jobs out there that pay very well and offer very good benefits without the aid of a UNION.
 
I think your view of the world is a bit skewed because you work in an environment where you can make a very good living making a career out of what amounts to an entry level job. I am sure that is the result of being UNION labor, but you should not assume you NEED a UNION to make a good living.
 
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La Li Lu Le Lo said:
That is the price you pay for having international UNIONS and leadership that is all but untouchable by the rank and file.
 
You think I am anti UNION, that is simply not the case. I just believe supporting this UNION with it's current organizational structure is a dead end.
 
Despite what may believe there are a lot of jobs out there that pay very well and offer very good benefits without the aid of a UNION.
 
I think your view of the world is a bit skewed because you work in an environment where you can make a very good living making a career out of what amounts to an entry level job. I am sure that is the result of being UNION labor, but you should not assume you NEED a UNION to make a good living.
I don't. But I absolutely prefer it.
 
The airline industry is one of the highest percentages of unionized workers, ask yourself why?
 
Ask any PMUS Fleet Service Agent what happened to them in 1992 when they were non-union.
 
700UW said:
The airline industry is one of the highest percentages of unionized workers, ask yourself why?
 
Ask any PMUS Fleet Service Agent what happened to them in 1992 when they were non-union.
The same thing when our Union Brothers and Sisters SOLD US OUT in the Class II Stations
 
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WeAAsles said:
I don't. But I absolutely prefer it.
You prefer to work in an environment where you have to start like a day one employee (shift bids and layoffs) if you want to try something new?
 
You prefer an environment where if your laid off from your current employer you can't apply to their competitor for like pay?
 
What about UNION employment makes you prefer it?
 
I seriously want to know, and please don't throw UNION propaganda at me. I want to know from YOUR point of view why you prefer to work under a UNION.
 
Here is a follow up question. Have you ever even worked a nonUNION job? What was it? How do you feel a UNION would have made it a better experience?