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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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"This week’s topic is the ongoing battle between AWAPPA and AOL. Does AWAPPA really have half a million dollars? Where’s the money? Now we’re hearing AWAPPA’s going to hire an accountant and let us know. While they’re checking the books, they need to transfer whatever’s left into AOL’s account or give it back. This money was donations, not dues. ATTENTION AWAPPA Leaders: your days are done. For once, show some class and give the money to AOL, where it will do some good or give it back to us. And whatever you do, don’t pull a John McIlvenna on your way out. "

POOR LITTLE JOHNNY!!!!!!


"As a result of this bid, I will be forcibly downgraded to First Officer while East pilots that are junior to me on the merged seniority list continue to hold their higher-paying Captain positions."



"So John McIlvenna files a grievance based on the NIC being in place, when a year ago AWAPPA’s own attorney said the proposed list was nothing more than a “proposed bargaining position.” Does anyone think this grievance even passes the laugh test? But it’s no laughing matter."



"the proposed list was nothing more than a “proposed bargaining position."



You guys really screwed up.
 
Boy, the east has been very generous........



"The MEC thought we were entitled to 90% of the new 757s. The East offered us 40%. We turned them down. Just before expedited arbitration was to begin, our merger attorney Freund told us we couldn’t win. We ended up settling for a 40% IOU that we still haven’t been able to use.

The East offered us 40% of the E-190 CA positions in a non-precedent DOH basis. McIlvenna and Dotter demanded a rotating bidding system that would put the most senior pilot on reserve every four months. We ended up in arbitration and lost. We got 33% of the CA slots as IOU. No west pilots have upgraded on the 190. If we took their DOH offer, we would have upgraded over 40 West pilots already. Almost half could hold lines. "
Johnny seems to have tendency for violence...........



"From: "John McIlvenna" <johnmc@a
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:43 AM

I hope the pilot group does not know about your plan to pay USAPA dues and join as a member, else I fear for your safety."

"Anyone who supports a leader like John McIlvenna who throws out veiled threats is just as sick as John"
 
Phoenix said:
After reading the last abomination the West filed in the 9th appeal, I can't believe you guys let Marty run your legal campaign. The judge asked each party to respond to TWO questions, and Marty had FIVE points he tried to make (most were legal fictions based on his infamous implicit assumptions) and he threw in another attempt to argue for "common benefit" attorney's fees.

Marty seems to epitomize the "ambulance chaser" approach, avoided by evey potential client except the most gullible.
 
Well, a fella's gotta' right to make a living, after all and "If God had not want them shorn, He would not have made them sheep" Author Unknown.
 
U Turn: AOL Vs AWAPPA

This week’s topic is the ongoing battle between AWAPPA and AOL. Does AWAPPA really have half a million dollars? Where’s the money? Now we’re hearing AWAPPA’s going to hire an accountant and let us know. While they’re checking the books, they need to transfer whatever’s left into AOL’s account or give it back. This money was donations, not dues. ATTENTION AWAPPA Leaders: your days are done. For once, show some class and give the money to AOL, where it will do some good or give it back to us. And whatever you do, don’t pull a John McIlvenna on your way out.





You westies should have put Dave in charge, he gets it, and now it looks like you will be stuck in PHX extended stagnation.

And it all boils down to WYE RIVER, should have taken the NIC when we offered it to you.


"According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement."

Why did you not listen to Jeffery, he knows what's best for you?


"Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that"
 
WEST PILOTS NEED TO DUMP AOL NOW! IT'S NOT TO LATE?



"Even if you hate USAPA, who do you really think would better represent LCC pilots in a merger with ALPA’s biggest MEC? ALPA or USAPA? Who do you want protecting the existing TA? ALPA or USAPA? "


Same applies to the AA merge, better wake up, you bring nothing to this merge.
 
Phoenix said:
You can say that again. 😀
The Martay, Fergay, and Koontay alliance has done more to cause delay of a resolution than anything USAPA could have dreamed up.


So so right!!!
 
luvthe9 said:
WEST PILOTS NEED TO DUMP AOL NOW! IT'S NOT TO LATE?
"Even if you hate USAPA, who do you really think would better represent LCC pilots in a merger with ALPAs biggest MEC? ALPA or USAPA? Who do you want protecting the existing TA? ALPA or USAPA? "
Same applies to the AA merge, better wake up, you bring nothing to this merge.
You had better wake up. West pilots are not going to tolerate second-class status at this airline.


LOS and Hiding in Plain Sight


In our update of March 30, 2015, we wrote about the company's plans to delay implementation of an integrated seniority list until the fall of 2016 and how this could put all AA pilots at risk due to the loss of job protections found in the MOU [JCBA Supplement D (Exhibit 1), attached]. We also said that we found this information to be wholly unacceptable and suspicious, and how it is our opinion that PHX is being systematically deprived of merger benefits- both this one and the last. This has gone on for longer than most will remember and we don't believe it can be the result of anything other than an ongoing and concerted effort to shift benefits away from PHX- the only domicile whose company was not bankrupt in either of the last two mergers and the base from where the top leaders of the company came- and to the US Airways pilots to the possible detriment of everyone else. We also spoke about how the company has turned a blind eye toward our situation while saying it will be prolonged due to an implementation delay of single SLI due to 'IT' issues. In this update we will address just one of the many pieces of evidence which helps prove how our plight is not simply the result of bad fortune or happenstance. This will serve as a cautionary tale for APA leadership and all pilots of the new company. Remember, once those JCBA Supplement D protections we discussed last week end (at the latest) around the company's current implementation projection of October 2016, it will be possible for management to whipsaw all three pilot groups against each other, increasing its leverage over the pilots exponentially. It has done this masterfully for almost a decade and APA must not allow this to happen in the future. The only protection from this is an integrated list and an operation devoid of any definable division which management can (and will) exploit.

This will be a fairly long update, but we implore you to read this section in its entirety because your future with AA somewhat depends on knowing how the newly anointed leadership of American Airlines and many of the former US Airways pilots have cooperated in the past. We'll start today and work back to the beginning of the AWA-US Airways merger:

One beneficial provision of the JCBA was the inclusion of an additional two years of LOS (length of service) for pilots who were furloughed in the wake of 911. In spite of the fact that Delta gave full LOS to its pilots and United agreed to far more than two years as well, our management would not budge further; so two years was better than nothing. In order to validate eligibility for the LOS, on March 24, APA published an update (link) on its website and is requiring pilots to verify their LOS information through April 7. APA has published three lists; Legacy AA, LUS East and LUS West. The LUS lists were compiled by current APA Negotiating Committee member, Dean Colello. Dean is a LUS East pilot and was formerly the chairman of the USAPA's Negotiating Advisory Committee and was on that committee for most of USAPA's existence. It's important to know that Dean was the most senior pilot furloughed from US Airways at the time of the AWA/US Airways merger. US Airways began furloughing pilots in October 2001, and furloughed Colello in the second half of 2003.

On the LUS East list, beginning on page 23 through 25 and line numbers 630 through 693, you will find dates-of-hire ranging between July 5, 2004 and October 25, 2004. There is a significant gap of 4.5 years above and 3 years below this group of 64 pilots. When the AWA/US Airways merger was announced in May 2005, US Airways had 1691 pilots (33%) reported to be on furlough, the most junior of which had a date-of-hire in early 2000. How, then can it be that US Airways hired 64 pilots at a time when it had one-third of its pilots on furlough? Answer: it didn't!

These 64 pilots were first hired at US Airways wholly owned subsidiary MidAtlantic (link) in 2004, after it had first offered jobs to pilots furloughed from US Airways but still had unfilled positions. US Airways later brought these pilots to the company for the first time in 2007 or 2008, where they've remained employed ever since. Why then, do they show an impossible hire date from 2004? Because Dean (who worked at MidAtlantic when he was furloughed from US Airways) and USAPA wanted to advance these pilots ahead of the former AWA pilots and the company allowed them to do so. Never mind that they didn't come to work at US Airways before 2007 and disregard the fact they were not furloughed during the 2008-2009 downturn (unlike many AWA pilots who were actually hired well before them). But the company entrusted APA to determine their LOS eligibility, and APA (in turn), delegated that process to Dean who decided to give them longevity for their time at MidAtlantic and LOS credit for their spent time unemployed from a different company. The net effect is that these pilots (who became furloughed from MidAtlantic when it ceased operations in May 2006, but were not furloughed from US Airways) are slated to receive the LOS benefits for time spent between the end of MidAtlantic and the commencement of their employment at US Airways. Further, they are given mainline longevity credit for their time at MidAtlantic. While they were not hired by US Airways in 2004, the company has and continues to treat them as if they were for seniority purposes to the detriment of former AWA pilots. This is akin to AA recognizing a former Eagle pilot's original Eagle date-of-hire for all purposes on the AA seniority list.

The data that forms the basis of the LOS lists was recently sourced from the company and, lest anyone think this is a minor oversight on the part of Dean or the company, there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. This evidence includes two arbitrators' rulings and a federal court order.


About these pilots George Nicolau noted in his 2007 ruling:


The 1691 [furloughed US Airways pilots] include 105 so-called CEL (Combined Eligibility List) pilots who never flew on the mainline, to be discussed below, and 212 other Mid-Atlantic Division (MDA) pilots. Though listed as active in a US Airways summary sheet, they are carried as furloughed on the US Airways Certified 5/1/05 list. [Nicolau Award, page 5, footnote 1, emphasis added]


These impossible 2004 hires are the remaining so-called CEL pilots which the company cannot and should not treat as having been hired at US Airways in 2004, yet it does.


Arbitrator Wallin, in his arbitration ruling (Exhibit 2) for the MDA [MidAtlantic] Longevity grievance put this way:


By repeatedly listing the Mainline Agreement sections that would remain applicable to the MDA pilots as they did, the parties clearly and unambiguously excluded any application of all others. Because Section 22 [Section 22 is seniority in the ALPA contracts] of the Mainline Agreement did not apply to MDA pilots, those pilots were not eligible to accrue longevity credit under the Mainline Agreement for their time in MDA service. Accordingly, employment at MDA simply did not constitute employment with the Company within the meaning of Section 22 of the Mainline Agreement. [Wallin Award, page 25, emphasis added]


Wallin also states:


the weight of the evidence convincingly establishes that furloughed Mainline pilots remained in that furlough status while they worked for MDA. Given that fact, the clear language of Mainline Agreement Section 23(A) precludes those pilots from receiving longevity credit for the time they spent working at MDA. Although not all of the MDA pilots were furloughed from Mainline because they came to MDA from other sources, there is no language in the Mainline Agreement that would operate to treat them better than the pilots who were furloughed from Mainline. [Wallin Award, pages 27 and 28, emphasis added]


Lastly, in this MDA Longevity grievance award wherein the association (first ALPA, then USAPA) sought to have MDA pilots longevity recognized as time in service at US Airways (which the company vigorously fought), it states:


For its part, the Company conceded that many of the MDA pilots were treated as though they were credited with Mainline Agreement pay and benefits for their MDA service. However, according to the testimony of the Companys Vice President of Flight Operations, this was done by mistake. [Wallin Award, page 21, emphasis added]


In addition to these arbitration rulings, a federal court order in the Naugler et al v. ALPA (link) litigation likewise agrees these pilots never flew for mainline and were therefore properly accounted for in the Nicolau proceedings:


Plaintiffs are pilots who flew Embraer-170 aircraft for MidAtlantic Airways, a division of US Airways, from 2004, when MidAtlantic launched until 2006, when MidAtlantic operations ceased. At the time they flew for MidAtlantic, some of the plaintiffs had been furloughed from their positions at US Airways. Others had flown only for wholly-owned subsidiaries of US Airways. [Naugler Order, page 2, emphasis added]


The Naugler Order goes on to state:


Defendants [ALPA] argue that they did not breach their duty of fair representation because the seniority list submitted to the arbitrators was factually accurate. Plaintiffs [Naugler, et al] argue that the defendants breached their duty of fair representation by submitting a seniority list which erroneously placed plaintiffs at the bottom of the seniority list amongst other furloughed pilots and first officers by listing no furlough end date for them, but rather including their start and, if applicable, end dates with MDA, which, in effect, categorized them as remaining on furlough. According to plaintiffs, there was no need to list an MDA start date because each pilot's MDA start date should have been his furlough end date; in short, plaintiffs argue, flying for MDA constituted recall to the mainline. Plaintiffs assert that the List had the effect of not properly crediting their flight time at MDA as flight for the mainline and erroneously placed them at the bottom of the List.


Plaintiffs claim that, because MDA was flying on the mainline operating certificate as a division of the mainline, a recall to MDA was necessarily a recall to the mainline. Defendants, on the other hand, contend that, although MDA was a division of the mainline, there were separate agreements which governed working conditions at MDA and that, based on those separate agreements, the offer and acceptance of a position at MDA was not a recall to the mainline.


As explained above, flying for MDA was not the same as flying for the mainline, despite the fact that there was ambiguity as to MDA's corporate status at U.S. Airways. The undisputed record establishes that there were different working and employment conditions for pilots flying for MDA, governed by the 2002 Restructuring Agreement and LOA 84. Flight for MDA was not flight for the mainline. Most significantly, acceptance or rejection of employment at MDA did not affect a US Airways' pilot's seniority standing. In contrast, except in limited circumstances, a furloughed US Airways pilot who refused recall to US Airways lost his place on the seniority list. [Naugler Order, pages 16-17, emphasis added]


Given the foregoing, there is no conceivable way that the company's treatment of these pilots is now some sort of oversight, especially in light of the fact that some of the managers who testified on behalf of the company against the association remained at US Airways and continue to work at American Airlines, thus allowing the continued treatment of these pilots who weren't hired by the company in 2004 as if they were. This should alert all AA pilots to lingering cronyism and favoritism and should put everyone on guard against unfair or inequitable treatment in spite any assurances to the contrary (or contract, side-letter, arbitration ruling, or court order).


But Wait! There's More...

Nearly three years after the AWA/US Airways merger was consummated and more than one year after that seniority arbitration was issued, management decided it needed a reduction-in-force and announced the furlough of 175 West, and 125 East pilots in July 2008. Due largely to a concerted effort to avoid integrated operations under the Nicolau Award, no JCBA had been reached and furloughs were initiated separately, allegedly in accordance with the Transition Agreement (TA) then in effect (which was substantially the same as the MOU in many ways). The TA is attached to this email as Exhibit 3. The Transition Agreement States:

America West may hire new pilots if all pilots on the US Airways seniority list have been offered recall to US Airways or have been offered a pilot position at America West. New pilots hired during the Separate Operations will be placed by their date of hire on a third seniority list entitled New Hire Seniority List, will be junior to all pilots on the pilot seniority lists of America West and US Airways on the effective date of this Letter of Agreement, and will continue to be junior to those pilots on the integrated seniority list of America West and US Airways pilots. [Paragraph II. B. 7, emphasis added]

Notice how the above paragraph addresses only US Airways pilots being hired at AWA due to the vastly different financial conditions of the airlines when this agreement was negotiated, but nonetheless states that New Hire pilots will junior to all pilots on the seniority lists of both airlines on the effective date. Nonetheless (and almost as an afterthought located in the final sub-paragraph of Section II) the TA does state, n the event of America West furloughs, furlough references in this Letter of Agreement will be modified to apply to both pilot groups.

After the downturn of 08-09, the company did begin to hire again on the US Airways side and did offer furloughed West pilots jobs in the East operation, in accordance with the above language, except it placed those pilots below the new hire pilots as defined in the TA. The company and USAPA finally rectified this situation in February 2013 after some of the furloughed West pilots had suffered under this erroneous seniority scheme for several years. But, this correction failed to rectify the situation in that it failed to move the furloughed West pilots to their proper place above these MDA pilots whom the company, even at that time, maintained the position that they were not entitled to longevity for time spent at MDA. If they weren't entitled to that longevity (and weren't furloughed from US Airways), then they didn't work for US Airways when the TA became effective and therefore must be treated as New Hire Pilots in accordance with the language outlined in the Transition Agreement Paragraphs II. B. 7 cited above. The USAPA update announcing this rearranging of the seniority list is attached to this email as Exhibit 4, in addition to the two letters cited therein (Exhibits 5 and 6).


And as for the West LOS List...

On the LOS List for West pilots, Dean (and the company, we suppose) has determined to treat furloughed West pilots who declined a job offer to the East operation as if they had deferred recall. This is incorrect, as the language of the Transition Agreement (under which they declined the offer and which is substantially the same as JCBA Supplement D) imposed no penalty for declining a job offer to the opposite carrier. Yet, their 2-year LOS bonus could theoretically be reduced by the time Dean says they deferred (when they didn't). A job offer to the East was never the same as a recall to the West, and therefore must not count against the LOS bump, yet this is how deferrals are accounted for on the West list despite no written obligation to take said offer and no explicit penalty for declining. The number of individuals affected is small as is the net effect (if any), but we believe the integrity of the process should be respected. When this has been brought to Dean's attention, it has been dismissed as meaningless and no revised list has been offered.

We want all AA pilots to receive their LOS bumps as soon as possible, but given the easily found flaws in these lists, we are forced to question their authenticity and integrity as a whole. The disparities in the LOS lists present an opportunity to shed light on the ongoing favoritism afforded to certain subgroups within our pilot ranks which must not be allowed to continue.


And in Our Next Episode...

...we will discuss recently announced changes in Flight Operations management and our experience with the outgoing VP of Flight Operations, and will try to return to a nuts-and-bolts discussion in the application of the JCBA and some of the differences from Contract 2004 which should be useful in your day-to-day professional life. In future updates we will continue to address other inequities foist upon management's disfavored employees. The foregoing LOS debacle is merely the tip of the iceberg and we will soon outline more factual history which, when viewed in the best light, paints a picture of startling disparate treatment. Time will tell if this is intentional or not.


Stay tuned,

John and Eric


John Scherff

PHX Chairman


Eric Ferguson

PHX Vice Chairman
 
You had better wake up. West pilots are not going second-class status at this airline.



Sorry son, your the one that needs to wake up, you and your group of idiots have turned yourselves into "second-class" status. When will you ever take responsibility for what you have done, you can not blame the east, it was YOUR decision at WYE RIVER. YOUR legal counsel advised you and you listened to the idiots from the pretend law school, real smart.


You'll be in PHX for a long long time.
 
The west pilots better accept the fact the MDA pilots will be rolled into the entire arbitration using their MDA time as credit.
It is a new day with the AAL merger for all. David Braid spun his wheels, as are you trying to complain to Doug Parker.
 
luvthe9 said:
"Anyone who supports a leader like John McIlvenna who throws out veiled threats is just as sick as John"
 
Yeah. That's one truly "impressive", "macho hombre", perhaps at "his" all time best while slobbering/groveling at Parker's feet on company video, while obsequiously asking of the CEO if he should "turn in" east pilots. One must wonder if that both disgusting and utterly pathetic little creature's management-worshipping-knee-pads were personally autographed by Parker....Perhaps some ferocious "spartan"/"knight"/'"soldier"/"Larry Potta"/whatever might know the answer to that? I can't personally imagine ever having use for any such truly pitiful creature as even an at all respectable door mat, but then; management clearly has their full and previous ownership already established there in any case.
 
A most AWAsome little "Army" indeed:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7lgU3J5seA
 
 
 
In full fairness: "EastCheats" earlier notions of "bait" clearly apply here. Wager's always open, mighty "spartans"...I'm bored with this internet nonsense; how 'bout any of "you'se", perhaps only supposed "pilots"? Well, only if "you'se" aren't too busy waving your pathetic little "wizard" wands around in some sad "spartan" circle-jerk, or otherwise casting spells at the moment? 😉
 
Claxon said:
The west pilots better accept the fact the MDA pilots will be rolled into the entire arbitration using their MDA time as credit.
It is a new day with the AAL merger for all. David Braid spun his wheels, as are you trying to complain to Doug Parker.
It's time for the West to present another 50 slide PowerPoint presentation to upper management.
 
From: Jim Van Sickle (jimandXXXX
Sent: Fri 4/18/08 12:54 PM
To: americawestpilots@hotmail.com

Dave,
I hope you realize you are partially responsible for what occurred to our pilot group today.
Your non stop attempts to undermine our leadership, and fraternization with our enemies on the East have hurt the cause of the AWA pilots more than you can comprehend.
I hope you are proud of yourself.

Jim Van Sickle


GUYS LIKE JIM IS THE READON FOR THE WESTS DEMISE.


"Jim, in spite of all the MEC blunders that U-Turn exposed, 90+% of West pilots supported ALPA. U-Turn had no effect."




"MEC BLUNDERS"................TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.




"The MEC waved the FUD and told us to vote for the assessment last year. The money went to ALPA National. Its gone now. So is the $300,000 lump sum that the company guaranteed our MEC in the TA for completing seniority integration. ALPA took it with them."


YOU GOTTA LUV ALPA!!
 
Phoenix said:
It's time for the West to present another 50 slide PowerPoint presentation to upper management.
 
Can't really blame them for trying that. After all; Al Gore got a Nobel "prize" for nothing more than that...total slide counts may vary though. 😉
 
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: U-Turn: ATTN: AWAPPA Shoppers!

"Well this was what I has hoping to avoid!! The key here people is to set
up with UAL and get a prenup. Parker and team are not about to let u sap
ass block their deal with UAL. We need to focus on reaching out to as many
people in the UAL MEC as we ALL CAN. FENCE the prick in the east for 30yrs"

Ray Burkett
C82 First officer Rep
Vice Chairman


END RUN AROUND DID NOT WORK FROM THESE ARS KISSERS!!!!!!!





"Earth to Ray! Set up a “prenup” with UAL? Ray, ALPA’s not our CBA any more. And YOU aren’t the C82 FO Rep anymore. C82 doesn’t exist anymore. In fact, the entire LAS base isn’t going to last through the fall!

Sorry, Ray, but the UAL MEC isn’t going to give you or AWAPPA the time of day. They are represented by ALPA and ALPA is hanging it out if they negotiate with any group that isn’t the CBA. If they do and get caught at it, they could end up with a DFR that will make their $50+ million Duke-Spellacy settlement in the 1990s look like a parking ticket fine. The UAL MEC Merger Attorney is AWAPPA’s Jeff Freund. Can you say conflict of interest? How can he represent us and the UAL pilots at the same time? How can he give us any legal advice on defending the NIC while he’s representing UAL’s MEC? If a merger announcement is made, who do you think he will represent? "




YOU JUST CANT MAKE THIS STUFF UP! I ALMOST FEEL SORRY FOR THE WESTIES?
 
luvthe9 said:
"Earth to Ray! ..."

YOU JUST CANT MAKE THIS STUFF UP!
 
Ain't that tha' truth, and then some. I probably should've been more gentle to Cactuspilot on his utterly infantile "greatness" by purely fantasized association with the Army of the Republic of Texas, mea culpa, but I'd briefly then forgotten that the "spartans" were "heroically" engaged in even intersteller "warfare" all the while....Sigh...All of humankind should reverently take a moment to pray for their "heroic" success in "battle", lest all of decency, noble ideals, and perhaps even our species' very survival be lost forever!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIfKKw-kvPo
 
 
 
Grow Up doesn't even begin to at all properly address the whole PHX/"Spartan" phenomena we've seen these nearly 8 years now.
 
Disclaimer: I fully know that not all of them are infantile idiots by any means, as I've previously posted....But there's obviously no shortage of such within their Fantasyland "Army's" umm.."ranks", and after all: one has to just love the macho-"military styled" costumes alone. I, for one, would never dare even doubt the "righteous" umm..."principles" and clearly-video-proven, "battle"-tested-"valor" of such mighty "knights", "wizards"  and of course "dire wolves". Seriously though; one has no other even possible choice provided by them than to just laugh. 😉
 
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