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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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MUTATIS MUTANDIS said:
in May of 2007 only 11 of 30 sections were closed 3% pay raise with WEST rates and concessionary sections of the remaining , your so full of BS !
 
"so full of BS!" is all they've got to ever offer, it would sadly seem.  Be gentle with them,...lest the halls again resound with hearty and "heroic" shouts of "This is Sparta!" 😉
 
I've tried to pick a purely recreational and essentially harmless (save for egos and wagered funds) 'fight" with these spineless little "spartan" blow-hards for 8 years now without result. In full fairness: I have been sometimes "threatened" with even so much as light twin aircraft in their families in response. One does try not to laugh, but...Oh well....I suppose it's best to just grant them their "This is Sparta!" pwecious widdle "soldier" fantasies and leave the widdle kiddies to their Fantasyland in PHX...especially since they'll be there for a very long time to come.
 
cactusboy53 said:
Sorry, but there was a contract to be ACCEPTED that included better working conditions, MORE time off AND vacation, and much improved wages. All of this as early as 2007. Court testimony & exhibits document as such.
USAPA - "We never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!"
It was a substandard west agreement. Sorry Charlie, you missed the Nic.



“In the US Airways – America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn’t done yet.

And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby
 
luvthe9 said:
"Now let's look at what the individual Addington plaintiffs (Leonidas members) said with respect to the Kirby proposal: Steve Wargocki testified* that he would "probably not" vote for a contract that incorporated the Kirby proposal"......
One thing that will never change is that we will all get older and eventually must retire. By the year 2020, just under 2,500 pilots will have retired, with almost 2,000 (80%) of that number coming from the East pilot group. (This assumes an average age at retirement of 64, which, based upon available statistics, would tend to understate the rate and magnitude of pilot attrition.) By the year 2015, the number of age-64 retirements will be more than 900. The Leonidas/AOL pamphlet's minimization of attrition-related career opportunities cannot stand up to the plain realities of pilot demographics.
The East pilots do not blame the West pilots for the failed leadership of ALPA in the past and concur with the notion that we are not each other's enemy; we share the desire for all pilots to join together. However, the authors of the pamphlet, by continuing to push for a seniority proposal that, as recognized by the Ninth Circuit Court, was never and is not ratifiable, are clearly attempting to mislead the entire pilot group with misinformation that is purely self-serving and damaging to the entire pilot bargaining unit, East and West. We encourage all pilots to carefully examine what the actual USAPA seniority proposal contains. The USAPA proposal is balanced, representing the interests of the pilot group as a whole.
Finally, there is the question of delay, if any, caused by USAPA's pursuit of an equitable seniority integration solution. The most important point that must be recognized by all US Airways pilots is that the primary source of delay in reaching a single CBA is the non-seniority issue of economics and the intransigence of the Company in this regard. Until the recent disingenuous Leonidas mailer, there has never been any dispute that the Company's current economic proposal (the Kirby Proposal) is unacceptable throughout the pilot group. First, in a West MEC update dated July 23, 2007, West MEC Chairman John McIlvenna described the Kirby proposal as "woefully inadequate." Furthermore, in a draft letter from John McIlvenna to East MEC Chairman Jack Stephan dated February 22, 2008, the West MEC Chairman explained that "the May 2007 Kirby proposal ... was deemed unacceptable by both pilot groups." Now let's look at what the individual Addington plaintiffs (Leonidas members) said with respect to the Kirby proposal:
Steve Wargocki testified* that he would "probably not" vote for a contract that incorporated the Kirby proposal;
Mark Burman testified* that the Kirby proposal "seemed to fall short of what expectations were moving forward with the new contract."
Afshin Iranpour testified* that "from his point of view ... [the pilots] could probably ask for more than just [the] 3 percent raise" contained in the Kirby proposal;
Roger Velez (current PHX Domicile Representative) responded* with an emphatic "no" when asked if he would vote for a single CBA which incorporated the Kirby proposal as its economic package;
John Bostic, testified* that he "wouldn't be satisfied" with the Kirby proposal and he "would like [something] better."
How about this? The PHX rep states it was a good deal. Another failed representative mission. One of many miscalculations.
 
cactusboy53 said:
I look forward to AAA jumpseaters (ESPECIALLY with attitude), so I can school them on INTEGRITY and the value of keeping one's word.
 
P.S. Thanks for the day's closing laughs...Just even trying to imagine you "schooling " anyone on ANYthing, much less "INTEGRITY" made my night. 😉  "(ESPECIALLY with attitude)"...?  Umm..."attitude"?  Seriously? Sigh..Don't diminish the "value" of the only currency "you'se" actually have to offer anyone son.
 
No one that's anything even remotely approaching an actually "professional Pilot" seeks to "shool" a guest on the jump seat in any way, nor would ever "charge" them by way of foisting their personal BS on them while they're guests (or perhaps hostages, in your sick case) and would instead be pleased with an extra set of eyes/hands and a fellow crew member in the cockpit., and rather hope they'd be useful in times of emergency/whatever. Only such children as "you'se" would imagine other notions to ever be somehow "appropriate"....GROW UP!
 
Oh well...What do I know?...I was probably flying before "you'se" were even born, so I suppose I should naturally bow to your "wisdom"...Right? This last being an open invitation for more of your "gramps" notions, but only if you accept the flying wager, mighty "spartan"....Well? Surely any proud proclaimer of "This is Sparta!", much less such a mighty "soldier" as "you'se" self should have no problem with an honorable offer to finally allow you, no matter how bashful you might otherwise be about them, to truly show the world the fullest extent of your aerial "skills"....Well? 😉
 
MUTATIS MUTANDIS said:
in May of 2007 only 11 of 30 sections were closed 3% pay raise with WEST rates and concessionary sections of the remaining , your so full of BS !
David Simmons and his lack of labor law comprehension has done east pilots a huge favor. Dave has led his group down a rabbit hole in pursuit of the Nicolau. He has no idea it required a JCBA.
When the west attempts to try a new version, they will soon find the Nicolau has no relevance. It was merely a proposal.


Jeffrey Freund - Notice of Removal July 24, 2007
Thus, the “arbitration award” Plaintiffs purportedly seek to “vacate” is in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept. Application, Ex.1 at 2,9 (ALPA will present to the company the merged seniority list developed through ALPA’s Merger policy arbitration procedures, and “ALPA will use all reasonable means at its disposal to compel the company to accept and implement the merged seniority list”). Plaintiffs seek review of this ALPA bargaining position developed through ALPA Merger Policy, and, while couching it in the terms of “vacating” and “arbitration,” the relief they actually seek is a review of the product of ALPA’s Merger Policy, and, ultimately, alteration of ALPA’s bargaining proposal to the company…Plaintiff’s Application to “vacate” an “arbitration award” that does not establish any enforceable seniority rights in a collective bargaining agreement with the Company, but which merely sets out ALPA’s bargaining position to be presented to the company, is not a state law claim at all but rather an artfully pled Federal claim for breech of Duty of Fair Representation.

Judge Emmet Sullivan - Memorandum Opinion November 30, 2007
“Ultimately, the ALPA Merger Policy generates a proposed seniority list, which ALPA promises to present to the merged airlines in an effort to persuade the merged airlines to adopt the list.” See Defs. Opp’n 3-4.
 
 
The favorite west mantra was that East pilots were stuck on loa 93 wages acting like they were paid so much more and the company took advantage of this.  In all actuality the contracts contained equal costs, in fact the west pilots on average including captains, were paid less. 
 
Let us take a west f/o for example, mitch vasalino, the 10th tier law school graduates pay.
 
Mitch was an american eagle pilot hired in 2004, he was making 61 an hour in his second year, 2006 Immediately before the AMR merger was consummated in 2013, mitchell was making less hourly wages or equal to his East counterpart.  He did not have the PBGC rights of 4000 a month at retirement for life, like the East pilots.  Mitch will now be stagnate for many years.
 
The west pilot wages and contract cost the company less than the East pilots on loa 93.
 
https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilot/payrates/America-West-12.html
 
west pilots will soon unveil their new " plan"
It will be an absurd proposal. east new hires actually have better prospects in an arbitration than 75% of west pilots.
 
cactusboy53 said:
Sorry, but there was a contract to be ACCEPTED that included better working conditions, MORE time off AND vacation, and much improved wages. All of this as early as 2007. Court testimony & exhibits document as such.
USAPA - "We never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!"
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I get it now! You guys are actually going to hang your hats on the Kirby proposal??? A contract so far below industry standard that it couldn't be taken seriously? And YOU guys were the most upset about it because you said the lions share of any increase went East and there was little or nothing in it for YOU???

I've seen real desperation now...
 
A320 Driver said:
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I get it now! You guys are actually going to hang your hats on the Kirby proposal??? A contract so far below industry standard that it couldn't be taken seriously? And YOU guys were the most upset about it because you said the lions share of any increase went East and there was little or nothing in it for YOU???

I've seen real desperation now...
 
William Stokes
From: Flyzalot99@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:59 PM
To: U-Boston-Pilots@yahoogroups.com
Subject: The "comprehensive proposal"
Page 1 of 1
5/9/2007
Boston Pilots,
I just received a cursory phone debrief from the company's proposal. All I can say is that
I'm glad that management indicated that they would take it to the pilots themselves. Please
make every effort to attend their presentations as they try to negotiate around your MEC. A
word of caution though, there will probably be metal detectors at every entrance.
I am having a hard time finding the proper words to describe the detachment from reality that
is pervasive in management's thought process. Kirby tried the tired old carrot of a few
wide bodies and new international destinations as something that would make us accept this
latest insult. Everything else is garbage wrapped around a complete surrender of our
Section 1,Scope protection. Kirby repeatedly stated that continued industry consolidation
was the path to success. (Any ideas as to whose success he was thinking about? All
their stock options obviously have impaired their cognitive abilities). Now you know the
real story.
I won't bother you with the rest of the details, because I just start fuming as I read my
notes. Although Garland is not available, and I hesitate to speak for him now, I'll simply
repeat remarks that he has made on multiple occasions. We will settle for nothing less than
an industry leading contract,........... and this "comprehensive proposal" is not even in the
same area code.
Mike
 
A320 Driver said:
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I get it now! You guys are actually going to hang your hats on the Kirby proposal??? A contract so far below industry standard that it couldn't be taken seriously? And YOU guys were the most upset about it because you said the lions share of any increase went East and there was little or nothing in it for YOU???

I've seen real desperation now...
 
A AAA/AWA Joint Chairman's message has been emailed to pilots and posted
under What's New. The text of the letter is below:
AAA-AWA MEC Joint Chairman’s Message
January 31, 2008
Fellow America West and US Airways pilots,
Today, the AAA and AWA Steering Committees and their respective merger and
negotiating teams will begin talks about the issues separating our pilot groups in
order to produce a comprehensive contract counterproposal for both MECs to
review. As we have said in the past, any comprehensive proposal must adequately
address seniority implementation issues and all open JNC issues for both pilot
groups.
The Steering Committees are meeting at a neutral site, and to give this process
the best chance for success, both sides have agreed to a communications blackout
during this time. As a result of this policy, our pilots should understand that any
hearsay information floating around is unsubstantiated, and should be treated as
rumor only.
If the AAA and AWA Steering Committees are able to successfully produce a
comprehensive contract counterproposal, it will first be reviewed by both MECs. If
both MECs approve the final product, JNC negotiations would resume with
management as we counter the infamous “Kirby proposal” that we received on
May 8, 2007.

If a TA is achieved through joint negotiations and is subsequently approved by
both MECs it will be sent to each pilot group for ratification. The rank and file
members of this union will be the ultimate arbiters of any agreement.
There is much at stake here for both pilot groups. None of your union volunteers
takes the challenges ahead of us lightly. Your MEC leadership and the Steering
Committees all appreciate your patience while we work through these very
difficult issues.
Fraternally,
Captain Jack Stephan
Chairman, AAA MEC
Captain John McIlvenna
Chairman, AWA MEC
 
A320 Driver said:
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I get it now! You guys are actually going to hang your hats on the Kirby proposal??? A contract so far below industry standard that it couldn't be taken seriously? And YOU guys were the most upset about it because you said the lions share of any increase went East and there was little or nothing in it for YOU???

I've seen real desperation now...
 
The true case is far sadder than that. What's really being seen here and in company meetings, is both clinically Arrested Development and some sort of strangely childish, cultist fantasies, somehow combined within a group of supposed "Professional Pilots"....But pursuing that discussion further's hardly appropriate for just an internet "nyahh, nyaah" forum. Consider just the following videos alone and even try to imagine how such appear to anything even approaching trained psychologists of any sort:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxaQFQC0MAY
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT8H9smpK3U
 
If yet more just-plain-head-shaking-in-utter-disbelief fodder's required; I again give you:
 
"I'm 'captain' Eric Auxier"....An obviously serious and truly professional..umm "pilot"....but I yet can't even seem to even be able to formally "dress" in more than an infantile T-shirt when proudly addressing literally the whole world on youtube...I'm just all-that-waay-cool-dude...and will obviously never even consider actually growing up at all...After all: Aren't T-shirts just really way-cool uniforms for any mindless little twit to sport while proudly telling the world he's a supposed "captain", if even only ever such by purely corporate-costumed fantasies...Right?   
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlzpMjT58WY
 
Just even imagine what would happen if passengers were first required to watch these videos before boarding these perpetual children's planes? If even the above's insufficient to properly generate a fully astounded/"WTF?...You've just GOT to be kidding me!...That's the Captain!?...Seriously?..In a F'n T-shirt?....Is he always drunk, or just what drugs is he on?...I'm OUT of here!" response...there's always west "wizards" available to help further enhance the image of "Professional Pilots" everywhere...But heck: Who wouldn't want to put themselves and their loved ones on "Larry Potta's" plane, after all? 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7lgU3J5seA
 
In summation: "You won't even get 200 cards!...Send the cards, I DARE you!"...."Ho, ho ho! St nic is coming to town!"..."Final and Binding!...It's OVER!...Get used to it!" Sigh...Whatever. What worries me most these days is just some malevolent spell being cast by "Larry Potta"...But there's always room for few more "This is Sparta!" exclamations in whatever form they take, I suppose....to necessarily be met with the appropriate laughter.  😉
 
EastUS1 said:
In summation: "You won't even get 200 cards!...Send the cards, I DARE you!"...."Ho, ho ho! St nic is coming to town!"..."Final and Binding!...It's OVER!...Get used to it!" Sigh...Whatever. What worries me most these days is just some malevolent spell being cast by "Larry Potta"...But there's always room for few more "This is Sparta!" exclamations in whatever form, I suppose....to necessarily be met with the appropriate laughter.  😉
I'd sure like to see an old fashion countdown clock
 
cltrat said:
I'd sure like to see an old fashion countdown clock
 
I kinda' miss those as well...but heck!; we've recently, at least been gifted with an admittedly vague "Tic tock" from cactusboy,  so I guess we'll just have to settle for that these days....Does anyone know whatever happened to prechill and her perpetual, but very earnest promises of always and imminently being about to take control of an A330 in CLT any day then/yesterday/last week/soon/now-for-sure/whatever?....No?....Sigh....What sorry times these truly are for folks in PHX....Oh Well...They've all the deep satisfaction of "having served the Fatherland-Sparta" in any case...And really; what more waay-cool-dude Ties and T-shirts and "spartan bling" could anyone ever want from life than that?...Must exit for now, as further postings tonight about "spartans" would likely border on little better than being essentially child abuse.
 
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