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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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cactusboy53 said:
I believe you're confusing us with Steve Bradford, Mark King & the "Down by the River in a Van" gang (We're gonna get you an industry leading contract AND Date of Hire!).
Still hearing nothing but opinion, fabrication, emotion (wailing & gnashing of teeth) from you boys.
So you admit plainly to being a leader of AOL.. and you show my post was bulls eye. You told everyone to vote for a status quo of an industry leading contract, MB from three DOH lists, and a nullity of all former agreements. They followed your instructions to a T. Now they are writing letters to Steve Bradford absolving USAPA and APA from any responsibility in the SLI.. and assigning AOL the authority (but no responsibility) to represent them..

Al Sharpton is winking at youse. 😉
 
Phoenix said:
 You told everyone to vote for a status quo of an industry leading contract, MB from three DOH lists, and a nullity of all former agreements. 
 
You're a little confused.
 
There's only one DOH list and it belongs to the West.
 
traderjake said:
You're a little confused.
 
There's only one DOH list and it belongs to the West.
Stalking again..

Your heros are Al Sharpton wannabes are you aren't in the circle of trust.
 
“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”
 
Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer

Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013
 
The National Mediation Board on the subject of contract continuity:
 

"When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one set of representatives and employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does NOT ALTER OR CANCEL ANY EXISTING AGREEMENT made on behalf of the employees by the previous representatives.  The only effect of a certification by the Board is that the employees have chosen other agents to represent them in dealing with the management under the existing agreement
 
[SIZE=12.5pt]In the matter of: Preliminary Arbitration Board APA/USAPA/AA (December 17, 2014)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12.5pt]ARBITRATOR JAVITS: All three lists. I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list? ….. And American pilots. And, therefore, you're making a proposal, which may be different than what Nicolau had in mind[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12.5pt]and issued back in '07.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12.5pt]MR. FREUND (in closing):As the Chairman put it so nicely in his questioning of Jess Pauley, what the US -- what the East Committee, the US Airways Committee, the USAPA[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12.5pt]Committee, call it what you want, what it wants to do is to put itself in the place of George Nicolau and redo what George did in 2007.[/SIZE]
 
“Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so.  By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.
 
Judge Roslyn O. Silver, Chief United States District Judge

No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS ORDER; October 11, 2012
 
Claxon said:
CACTUSBOY 53- your rebuttal to the 9 th please.....
First and foremost, plaintiffs cannot explain, nor do they try, how irreparable injury follows from this Court’s finding that there is no injury at all. As this Court already determined, because no seniority term exists, because it has yet to be negotiated, there is no harm, hence the case is not ripe. Addington v. US Airline Pilots Ass’n, 606 F.3d 1174, at *10 (9th Cir. 2010) (“We conclude that this case presents contingencies that could prevent effectuation of USAPA's proposal and the accompanying injury”). And, in making the lack of injury determination, this Court necessarily rejected plaintiffs’ theory of their case that a failure to implement a predecessor union’s proposal – one even the former union was free to drop – is somehow a violation of the duty of fair representation. Id. at *14, n.3 (“USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor”). Hence, under the law of this case, that bare possibility cannot constitute injury now, or ever. Second, plaintiffs admit that it is merely speculative (“it might”) that the imagined harm, a date of hire seniority term, is ever negotiated, ratified, and executed. Stays may be denied even with a showing of irreparable harm, but without such showing denial is required. Chrysler LLC, 129 S. Ct. 2275 (2009)

4




They claim that the Supreme Court would reverse because, “this case will encourage other unions to refuse, in bad faith, to implement an arbitrated seniority integration” (DktEntry 52 at 1-2), when this Court has already found the Nicolau arbitration was merely “the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA.” Addington, 606 F.3d 1174, at *15, n.3. But there is no arbitration that USAPA was ever a party to anywhere in this record. And the district court properly dismissed (and plaintiffs did not appeal) the removed state claim, which asserted the pilots themselves were a party. There not only is no ‘federally mandated’ arbitration, there is no arbitration at all, merely a predecessor union’s bargaining proposal.



Plaintiffs also claim that this Court’s disposition would “thwart important federal labor policy – evidenced by the 2007 passage of the McCaskill-Bond bill”(DktEntry 52 at 2).3 But there is no dispute, let alone any claim, that McCaskill is not applicable, nor could it be for several reasons, procedural as well assubstantive. Even if McCaskill were applicable, arbitration is not mandatory, rather, as plaintiffs concede, only utilized, ‘if necessary.’ Plaintiffs’ McCaskill argument is a red-herring.

____________________________________________________

3 For good reason, this argument was never raised below.












1The dissent asserts that “nothing would be gained by postponing a decision, and the parties’ interest would be well served by a prompt resolution of the West Pilots’ claim.” Diss. op. at 8017 (internal alterations, quotation marks, and citation omitted). To be sure, the parties’ interest would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute, but that is not the same as prompt resolution of the DFR claim. The present impasse, in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members — both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

2Plaintiffs’ alleged hardship cannot instead be premised on any delay caused by USAPA in reaching a single CBA. As the district court noted, Plaintiffs abandoned their claim that USAPA is intentionally delaying negotiation of a CBA. Addington, 2009 WL 2169164, at *22 (“During discovery, Plaintiffs retreated from any notion of deliberate delay on the part of USAPA.”). The dissent’s assertion that “the absence of a CBA is itself powerful evidence of a DFR violation,” Diss. op. at 8015, is therefore misplaced. Although absence of a CBA might be evidence of a DFR violation, if the violation were based on deliberate delay by the union, it is not evidence of a union’s improper preference of one seniority system over another. As demonstrated by ALPA’s similar difficulties in reaching a CBA, the pilot groups, and individual pilots with their ratification/nonratification powers, are the major contributors to the absence of a CBA in these circumstances.

3We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recog-nized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. See Diss op. at 8021-22.
MR. MOLLEN: Right. Right.
But from our perspective, Your Honor, the Ninth Circuit has not ruled that the case isn't ripe, it held that it wasn't ripe. 
 
Now that we've got the MOU in place and we're moving rapidly towards seniority integration under this merger the question of whether USAPA has to come to that particular integration process with a Nicolau-based list or not is ripe as it can be. It will never be more ripeWe are there, we have reached that juncture…….
 
NEAL D. MOLLEN, ESQ., DEBEVOISE & PLIMPTON LLP Special Aircraft Counsel to the Debtors

US Bankruptcy Court Transcripts: April 3, 2013
 
luvthe9 said:
Hardly, guess you're to stupid to figure out how much your pilot group has lost out on, and that's on top of how AOL is raping them, lost upgrades, you little junior whiners have held your senior guys off wide body slots and not to mention how you have locked yourselves in PHX for years to come.


Tell us all again how that is "illogical"..............
Well, I'm not TOO stupid to realize USAPA & the "Down by the River DOH Gang" sold you a bill of goods that was never realized.  That epic failure cost EVERY single pilot from M. TYSON (A330 Captain) to E. VARINI (Furloughed US Air pilot - 2004 DOH).
 
Your group forced us to defend our legal and rightful position.  It's that simple.
 
Luvr, your posts are FILLED with lies & fabrications.  You argue with emotion and nonsense.
 
Phoenix said:
So you admit plainly to being a leader of AOL.. and you show my post was bulls eye. You told everyone to vote for a status quo of an industry leading contract, MB from three DOH lists, and a nullity of all former agreements. They followed your instructions to a T. Now they are writing letters to Steve Bradford absolving USAPA and APA from any responsibility in the SLI.. and assigning AOL the authority (but no responsibility) to represent them..

Al Sharpton is winking at youse. 😉
What the heck are going on about?  You been dipping into EastUS's cough medicine again?
 
Pi brat said:
He was wrong on that, I called him on it. But I've also said he was a good pilot and people shouldn't throw unrelated barbs at him. Unlike your buddy C3PO.
 
 
Sorry, Brat.  I'm calling bs on that.  Trader has let loose with plenty of unrelated barbs and has no claim of immunity.  It goes with the territory.
 
The fact that someone functions well in the right seat doesn't mean they will do well in the left, you know that.  You only saw him in that role.  The Charlotte F/Os I know say he was a mess of a Captain.  Ask around about the nickname "short circuit."   
 
Getting caught in one lie wasn't enough for you?
 
Tell us again how I had to be talked through how to single engine taxi. 
 
LMAO
 
dariencc said:
Sorry, Brat.  I'm calling bs on that.  Trader has let loose with plenty of unrelated barbs and has no claim of immunity.  It goes with the territory.
 
The fact that someone functions well in the right seat doesn't mean they will do well in the left, you know that.  You only saw him in that role.  The Charlotte F/Os I know say he was a mess of a Captain.  Ask around about the nickname "short circuit."

Some of my buddies in CLT say the thing. He must me happy APA got rid of the up or out provision.
 
cactusboy53 said:
Well, I'm not TOO stupid to realize USAPA & the "Down by the River DOH Gang" sold you a bill of goods that was never realized.  That epic failure cost EVERY single pilot from M. TYSON (A330 Captain) to E. VARINI (Furloughed US Air pilot - 2004 DOH).
 
Your group forced us to defend our legal and rightful position.  It's that simple.
 
Luvr, your posts are FILLED with lies & fabrications.  You argue with emotion and nonsense.
Huh, last I checked everything is based on DOH, you chose not to join in and screwed yourself along with your entire pilot group.


PS that's a fact. Enjoy that hot summer STUCK in the PHX prison..



And that is with no NIC but I'm sure you know that by now.
 
cactusboy53 said:
Well, I'm not TOO stupid .....
 
What supportive evidence might you imagine you have to offer there?...Perhaps that of nearly 10 years now stuck in PHX with no reasonably predictable end to that in sight?
 
Uncharitable souls might argue that both your historic and present situations are hardly the proven products of true genius....Just sayin'...
 
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