2015 Pilot Discussion.

[luvthe9]

What supportive evidence might you imagine you have to offer there?...Perhaps that of nearly 10 years now stuck in PHX with no reasonably predictable end to that in sight?
 
Uncharitable souls might argue that both your historic and present situations are hardly the proven products of true genius....Just sayin'...

Understatement of the year, that is what happens when you listen to forth tier pretend lawyers. It's comical .

 

[cactusboy53]

Michael wrote:  "What supportive evidence might you imagine you have to offer there?....Perhaps that of nearly 10 years now stuck in PHX with no reasonably predictable end to that in sight?  Uncharitable souls might argue that both your historic and present situations are hardly proven products of true genius..Just sayin'.."
 
 
Look Michael, you really should come prepared to a debate with FACTS, PROOF, DOCUMENTATION, and HISTORIC PRECIDENT.  While it is true that the PHX pilots have been "stuck" there a while, it is further FACTUAL that we are such because the East pilots stepped away from the negotiation table and voted in their little union.  Further, it has been DOCUMENTED that USAPA is incapable of fairly representing the former AWA pilots in both arbitrations and court proceedings.
 
When you can come up with ANY salient argument with something other than opinion, emotion, and revisionist history.....then come on back.  Just sayin'.

 

[EastUS1]

FACTS, PROOF, DOCUMENTATION, and HISTORIC PRECIDENT.  While it is true that the PHX pilots have been "stuck" there.....

 
The FACTS are you're stuck in PHX and have been for nearly 10 years now. Debate that as best you can.....? 
 
You're a presumptuous little "piece-of-work" with assuming some first name familiarity, or any familiarity at all, since I can't recall signing any adoption papers on you.
 
No matter really. "While it is true that the PHX pilots have been "stuck" there": If you honestly wish to at all imagine your past and present situation in PHX to be indicative of both brilliant strategy and refined intellect...well,... have fun with that.

 

[cactusboy53]

The FACTS are you're stuck in PHX and have been for nearly 10 years now. Debate that as best you can.....? 
 
You're a presumptuous little "piece-of-work" with assuming some first name familiarity, or any familiarity at all, since I can't recall signing any adoption papers on you.
 
No matter really. "While it is true that the PHX pilots have been "stuck" there": If you honestly wish to at all imagine your past and present situation in PHX to be indicative of both brilliant strategy and refined intellect...well,... have fun with that.

Boo hoo. Cry me an emotional (Wye) river.

 

[EastUS1]

Boo hoo. Cry me an emotional (Wye) river.

 
Huh? Having not been stuck in PHX since 2005, idiotically parading around shouting "This is Sparta!" as you have, to no affect whatever;  I'm unable to find much reason for tears. As always; have fun with your fantasies kid.

 

[Claxon]

“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”
 
Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer



Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013

You are honestly incompetent. How can you offer up an OPINION rather than a ruling?
Until you offer up a court ruling, you are merely blowing smoke. As usual.

 

[Claxon]

The National Mediation Board on the subject of contract continuity:
 

"When there is an agreement in effect between a carrier and its employees signed by one set of representatives and employees choose new representatives who are certified by the Board, the Board has taken the position that a change in representation does NOT ALTER OR CANCEL ANY EXISTING AGREEMENT made on behalf of the employees by the previous representatives.  The only effect of a certification by the Board is that the employees have chosen other agents to represent them in dealing with the management under the existing agreement”

Yes, 100% correct. Except for the fact there was no agreement. IE a JCBA. Had there been a JCBA, you would be correct and the agreement could not be changed except for mutual agreement.

 

[Claxon]

[font=courier-bold']In the matter of: Preliminary Arbitration Board APA/USAPA/AA (December 17, 2014)[/font]
 
[font=courier-bold']ARBITRATOR JAVITS: All three lists. I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list? .. And American pilots. And, therefore, you're making a proposal, which may be different than what Nicolau had in mind[/font]
[font=courier-bold']and issued back in '07.[/font]
 
[font=courier-bold']MR. FREUND (in closing):As the Chairman put it so nicely in his questioning of Jess Pauley, what the US -- what the East Committee, the US Airways Committee, the USAPA[/font]
[font=courier-bold']Committee, call it what you want, what it wants to do is to put itself in the place of George Nicolau and redo what George did in 2007.[/font]

Is the OPINION of an arbitrator law? NO. Arbitrators can have opinions, and this one seems to agree with you. But it has no legal standing until it is delivered in an award. You merely reference the line of questioning of an arbitrator, not the final award.

You have done the PHX pilots a massive injustice by not understanding the issues.

 

[Claxon]

Michael wrote:  "What supportive evidence might you imagine you have to offer there?....Perhaps that of nearly 10 years now stuck in PHX with no reasonably predictable end to that in sight?  Uncharitable souls might argue that both your historic and present situations are hardly proven products of true genius..Just sayin'.."
 
 
Look Michael, you really should come prepared to a debate with FACTS, PROOF, DOCUMENTATION, and HISTORIC PRECIDENT.  While it is true that the PHX pilots have been "stuck" there a while, it is further FACTUAL that we are such because the East pilots stepped away from the negotiation table and voted in their little union.  Further, it has been DOCUMENTED that USAPA is incapable of fairly representing the former AWA pilots in both arbitrations and court proceedings.
 
When you can come up with ANY salient argument with something other than opinion, emotion, and revisionist history.....then come on back.  Just sayin'.

It is the right of any labor group to change their representative body. You knew the avenue was open, legal, and probable. It is no more unlawful than voting out a president or congress.
Just because you rolled the dice after multiple warnings it could happen is your decision. In this country the majority rules. Then, after all the warnings it could happen, you cry like a baby with the INTEGRITY BS. Do losers in presidential elections cry integrity after they lose? No.
You chose to keep separate pay, and you got paid in spades. That was your failure of integrity.
You have utterly failed your group. You, Ferguson, Koontz and Harper. Harper is the most reprehensible. He knows better.

 

[Pi brat]

Sorry, Brat.  I'm calling bs on that.  Trader has let loose with plenty of unrelated barbs and has no claim of immunity.  It goes with the territory.
 
The fact that someone functions well in the right seat doesn't mean they will do well in the left, you know that.  You only saw him in that role.  The Charlotte F/Os I know say he was a mess of a Captain.  Ask around about the nickname "short circuit."

I'm not sure what you're calling BS on. I have no idea what kind of captain he was. I can only relate to my experience with him and I've related it as clearly as I can. I have huge differences of of opinion with trader, but up until that one incident we had a good trip despite some spirited disageements.

I'm married to a F/A and he impressed me with his consideration of them. I cannot remember an issue with his piloting skills. We disagree strongly on the Nic, but like him I've had people(east, west, Piedmont, US...you get the picture) accuse me of my "daddy"getting me my job. That is irrelevant.

I appreciate you standing up for me. I know where you stand.

 

[Claxon]

UTurn: Why Wye River Didn't Save Dave?
“If the Wright brothers were alive today Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs.” Herb Kelleher, Southwest Airlines, ‘USA Today,’ 8 June 1994.

Last February at Wye River, Rice and Prater told both MECs that the NIC would never be implemented. The East pilots had the votes to stop it. That’s why ALPA spent so much time and money trying to get us to compromise. The failure of Wye River pretty much ended ALPA on the property and ALPA knew it.

The real victims of Wye River are the 175 West pilots getting furloughed. We can thank our MEC for that. The Pro-ALPA East MEC offered a compromise they thought would save ALPA and get a cram-down contract vote out before the final USAPA election. According to our sources who were there, the East offer had fences that protected their retirement attrition and prevented East pilots from bidding into PHX/LAS and pushing down West pilots down. Furloughs would be based on length of service. We hear that came out of an old Empire Airlines furlough model.

The East MEC offer would have put Dave O’Dell ahead of approximately 400 east pilots (not a typo – four hundred). The East MEC’s offer was furloughs based on longevity, months of active mainline service.

That’s right, guys. They were desperate to save ALPA and their cushy union jobs. The polling must have told them their plan would save ALPA. For sure their proposal would “SAVE DAVE” from furlough.

Just like in the B-757 IOU, the E-190 arbitration IOU and unbalanced East-West flying, our MEC ended up getting 175 West pilots furloughed, because they refused to negotiate and THEY TURNED DOWN THE OFFER!

From what we’ve been told, Jeff Freund left the Wye River conference out of frustration over our MEC’s refusal to negotiate a compromise. Our MEC says they held the line. If failure to negotiate, causing 175 furloughs, is holding the line, great job, guys. The East MEC made an offer that would have prevented Dave O’Dell from being furloughed. You turned it down.


So, if you still think our MEC were heroes at Wye River, tell that to our bottom 175 pilots. All we can say is when you update your resume’, just remember who didn’t “SAVE DAVE.”

If the former West MEC goes after us on the facts, we’ll have to put out more details, including actual statements from those who were there on both sides. But that’s the former MEC’s call.

 

[Claxon]

Boo hoo. Cry me an emotional (Wye) river.

Wye River was the place where the fact you were about to get ALPA eliminated in a completely legal and highly probable fashion was revealed to you. Your reps were told by Jeff Freund, Rice, and Prater himself. Prater feared for ALPA and his job. He flat out warned you.
You, kicked the hornets nest, saying smugly, " you won t get 200 cards"
That statement clearly indicates you knew you were getting involved in an election, and one side always loses in one.
You have no integrity, for you rolled the dice like a gambler and lost. Then you blamed the winner.

 

[EastCheats]

It is the right of any labor group to change their representative body. You knew the avenue was open, legal, and probable. It is no more unlawful than voting out a president or congress.
Just because you rolled the dice after multiple warnings it could happen is your decision. In this country the majority rules. Then, after all the warnings it could happen, you cry like a baby with the INTEGRITY BS. Do losers in presidential elections cry integrity after they lose? No.
You chose to keep separate pay, and you got paid in spades. That was your failure of integrity.
You have utterly failed your group. You, Ferguson, Koontz and Harper. Harper is the most reprehensible. He knows better.

 
Decertified and headed to another arbitration. All is well, right, Claxon? 😉
 

 

[Phoenix]

It is the right of any labor group to change their representative body. You knew the avenue was open, legal, and probable. It is no more unlawful than voting out a president or congress.
Just because you rolled the dice after multiple warnings it could happen is your decision. In this country the majority rules. Then, after all the warnings it could happen, you cry like a baby with the INTEGRITY BS. Do losers in presidential elections cry integrity after they lose? No.
You chose to keep separate pay, and you got paid in spades. That was your failure of integrity.
You have utterly failed your group. You, Ferguson, Koontz and Harper. Harper is the most reprehensible. He knows better.

I have to excuse Marty... He is a real lawyer. Perhaps he has been a little duplicitous in his dealings but his legal letters to the gullible have always contained obvious fine print... Marty is a real lawyer taking advantage of gullible pilots (what's the harm in that?)... Marty isn't a pilot taking advantage of pilots (I.e. Marty isn't engaged in canabalism, so to speak).

 

[im back..!!]

Decertified and headed to another arbitration. All is well, right, Claxon? 😉

I predict a long hot summer in PHX.

When is the next PHX crew news due out? I hope not till around late July.
Give a little time for the initial late June SLI meetings and there indicated direction to set in.

I'm gonna stock up on popcorn for that.