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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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end_of_alpa said:
How about that maybe the old paradigms don't work anymore.  Pilots are the WORSE union membership has to offer because they simply have NO SOP's regarding seniority.  Because of ME?  Hah!  You know what Barnum said.  Sucker born every minute?  Thats what management is saying in DFW.  It's just that you don't like being exposed (or reminded) of the obvious.  I still KNOW that E=mc2.  EXPERIENCE = man x time in service.  Most all the OTHER unions know this to be true, but I belabor the point.  No matter.  
 
How much money?  It USED to be about the PRINCIPLE I just stated above but pilot labor doesn't want that.  The APA and the West don't want that.  
 
I'm just going to give them what they want.  Good luck with your UNION principles.
 
Make up YOUR own principles.  It works for them.  It's working for ME.
Pilots as a whole are shortsighted idiots led by opportunists. Animal Farm comes to mind... (I am afraid most "sheep" have no clue of that reference).

You and other honorable men did their best to reestablish true unionism, and others did their best to actually negotiate in the midst of the most historic profits in the history of aviation. But on whole the pilot group is eager/content to be fleeced and on cue break out into shouts about four legs..

Every pilot is effectively nothing more than an independent contractor. It's what everyone wanted. Game on.
 
cactusboy53 said:
 
 
Utter and COMPLETE horsecrap Jamie.  We had a SOP regarding seniority within ALPA.  It's section 45 that gives the guidelines to attempt to come to an agreement.  It then gives the parties a chance to MEDIATE, followed by FINAL & BINDING ARBITRATION.
 
Here's a little history for you:
“In this instance, despite a year of negotiating efforts, there was no agreement on a list. Subsequently, the Representatives choose the Undersigned as Board Chairman and opted for the Med-Arb process. Those mediation efforts, held over the course of five days in October 2006, were similarly unsuccessful. Thereafter, the Parties agreed on the arbitration ground rules, and, pursuant to the Policy, each chose a Pilot Neutral from ALPA's Pilot Neutral Master List as a nonvoting member of the Arbitration Board.
 
George Nicolau, Mediator

AWA/AAA Opinion & Award; May 07, 2007
 
You and your little "van down by the river" gang are solely responsible for the delay of the inevitable.  You and your gang are solely responsible for the loss of income to EVERY SINGLE LUS pilot over the last 8 years.  You and your little gang are solely responsible for the combined (and continuing) legal expenditure of over 14 MILLION dollars in legal costs.
 
Here's what US Airways VP Paul Jones had to say under oath:
 
“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”
 
Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer

Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013

 
The "old paradigm" is the new paradigm (the McCaskill Bond legislation), only with some slight wording changes, BUT the metric is EXACTLY the same.  The result now is FEDERALLY FINAL & BINDING.
 
And please let us not forget what your very own US Air Merger Committee said (during the attempt to merge with UAL):
 
“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”
US Airwaves June/July 2000
US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)
 
While you may not be taken from the seat that you termed "I got mine", your seniority will NOW be locked in with the new SLI.  What that holds will be the end of it.  This because the new East Pilot Merger Committee is obliged to participate, but failing to do so will NOT derail the SLI process (as ordered by the SLI Board of Arbitrators).  I don't know when you "used to be all about principle", but it was CLEARLY before May 2007.  Just because a seniority list doesn't meet your expectations, does not make it wrong/unfair.
 
 

 
ALPA merger POLICY is not SOP.  It's a policy that myself and many here need not conform to.  It will be AT LEAST A YEAR AND A HALF for you and yours in the fishbowl.  And when YOU AND YOURS try to get a new contract, good luck.  I don't care about your "seniority", Nicolau can't tell ME when to fly or not and neither can the three Arbitrators now.  So when "we" get to 2020 you'll find out that APA has NO POWER to effectuate change because everyone has THEIR idea of what FAIR is.  I have mine and I will act accordingly.  I don't need your permission and I definitely don't need the APA.  
 
ALL THREE CONTRACTS before the merger had DOH but you and yours at APA want to cause us to compete and so be it.
 
So I am now a Company man.  If anyone reading this thread that is a new hire pilot you can believe what you want but the sad reality here is that the contract is nothing more than a temporary process that changes at the whim of union greed.
 
Cacharel serves "apples and milk". The pigs are the brainworkers, and science has proven that apples and milk are essential to a pigs brainpower. You understand that pigs do not enjoy apples and milk.. The flavor doesn't really set well with them, but for the advancement of the whole animal farm the pigs dutifully consume apples and milk at Cacharel. It's the least they can do on behalf of the sheep and other lesser animals.
 
Phoenix said:
Pilots as a whole are shortsighted idiots led by opportunists. Animal Farm comes to mind... (I am afraid most "sheep" have no clue of that reference).

You and other honorable men did their best to reestablish true unionism, and others did their best to actually negotiate in the midst of the most historic profits in the history of aviation. But on whole the pilot group is eager/content to be fleeced and on cue break out into shouts about four legs..

Every pilot is effectively nothing more than an independent contractor. It's what everyone wanted. Game on.
Finally, that message is getting out and if Friedrich vs. CTA overturns Abood next year, and I STRONGLY suggest it will, we will then have the ability to get rid of germane dues for RLA employees the APA will lose its ability to get nonmember germane money as well.  JUST WHAT THE WEST WANTED FOR THEMSELVES WITH USAPA.  The West has shown us the promised land, so be it.
 
end_of_alpa said:
Finally, that message is getting out and if Friedrich vs. CTA overturns Abood next year, and I STRONGLY suggest it will, we will then have the ability to get rid of germane dues for RLA employees the APA will lose its ability to get nonmember germane money as well.  JUST WHAT THE WEST WANTED FOR THEMSELVES WITH USAPA.  The West has shown us the promised land, so be it.
They named them "Liberty Ties"!!

It's cool that others paid for the fight. Ha!
 
Phoenix said:
Pilots as a whole are shortsighted idiots led by opportunists. Animal Farm comes to mind... (I am afraid most "sheep" have no clue of that reference).

You and other honorable men did their best to reestablish true unionism, and others did their best to actually negotiate in the midst of the most historic profits in the history of aviation. But on whole the pilot group is eager/content to be fleeced and on cue break out into shouts about four legs..

Every pilot is effectively nothing more than an independent contractor. It's what everyone wanted. Game on.
 
By not keeping your word.  By attempting to evade the agreed upon outcome by ANY & ALL MEANS.  By persecuting your fellow pilots AND forcing them to pay dues that would be used against those same pilots.  By lying and cheating all the way through the court system.
 
Uhhmmm..USAPA / DiOrio WOULD NOT negotiate a contract because it held the ONLY seniority list that was accepted by the company.  This is TRUE & documented in the minutes & resolutions of USAPA.  Delay, delay, delay.  That's all you've achieved.
 
Truly a hallmark to be "proud" of.
 
[SIZE=12pt]From “A Conversation with an Attorney” - between Bradford &  Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm (Chris Katzenbach point):  “Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.” [/SIZE]
 

[SIZE=12pt]This in response to Bradford saying the following:  “I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent as an avenue of advance to get around this award…[/SIZE]
 
end_of_alpa said:
ALPA merger POLICY is not SOP.  It's a policy that myself and many here need not conform to.  It will be AT LEAST A YEAR AND A HALF for you and yours in the fishbowl.  And when YOU AND YOURS try to get a new contract, good luck.  I don't care about your "seniority", Nicolau can't tell ME when to fly or not and neither can the three Arbitrators now.  So when "we" get to 2020 you'll find out that APA has NO POWER to effectuate change because everyone has THEIR idea of what FAIR is.  I have mine and I will act accordingly.  I don't need your permission and I definitely don't need the APA.  
 
ALL THREE CONTRACTS before the merger had DOH but you and yours at APA want to cause us to compete and so be it.
 
So I am now a Company man.  If anyone reading this thread that is a new hire pilot you can believe what you want but the sad reality here is that the contract is nothing more than a temporary process that changes at the whim of union greed.
WRONG.  It was SOP, and had been used SUCCESSFULLY.  You chose to ignore, evade & cheat.
 
end_of_alpa said:
Finally, that message is getting out and if Friedrich vs. CTA overturns Abood next year, and I STRONGLY suggest it will, we will then have the ability to get rid of germane dues for RLA employees the APA will lose its ability to get nonmember germane money as well.  JUST WHAT THE WEST WANTED FOR THEMSELVES WITH USAPA.  The West has shown us the promised land, so be it.
 
Oh look, a straw!  Let's grasp at it!
 
Phoenix said:
Pilots as a whole are shortsighted idiots led by opportunists. Animal Farm comes to mind... (I am afraid most "sheep" have no clue of that reference).
You and other honorable men did their best to reestablish true unionism, and others did their best to actually negotiate in the midst of the most historic profits in the history of aviation. But on whole the pilot group is eager/content to be fleeced and on cue break out into shouts about four legs..
Every pilot is effectively nothing more than an independent contractor. It's what everyone wanted. Game on.
HA!!! What BS. You guys are just pissed that you don't have a ball to take and go home. Pout all you want, nobody gives a flying fk what you feel, do, or say. You have ZERO honor and even less credibility. I love the pipe dream that the company will keep PHX isolated for you forever. Ever hear of pay protection? They won't touch that with a 10' pole. You guys are pathetic hypocrites that formed nothing but an inept organized crime ring. That's being addressed in another court room and it sounds like little Stevie Bradford is starting to piss his pants at that realization. Marty warned those idiots over and over. Oh well. The founders were the ones insisting upon "unmerged career expectations". They'll get exactly that. Being every us air guys pre merger expectation was unemployment and Wal-Mart, that's where Bradford will be after AOL bankrupts him. Win/Win. Everyone gets what they wanted. :lol:
 
end_of_alpa said:
Finally, that message is getting out and if Friedrich vs. CTA overturns Abood next year, and I STRONGLY suggest it will, we will then have the ability to get rid of germane dues for RLA employees the APA will lose its ability to get nonmember germane money as well.  JUST WHAT THE WEST WANTED FOR THEMSELVES WITH USAPA.  The West has shown us the promised land, so be it.
 
Well, that's ripe.Of course no pun or sarcasm intended. Now that that failed fake union experiment has meant the End-of-USAPA you
want to go after non-Usapian associations. It speaks volumes of your character or lack thereof.
 
Bottom line no NIC, only a year and half in the fishbowl, bet it will be a lot longer than that. Big smiles Dave
 
luvthe9 said:
Bottom line no NIC, only a year and half in the fishbowl, bet it will be a lot longer than that. Big smiles Dave
Bottom line. USAPA FAILED. That will be evident after SLI. Courtney, I promise you. You have bigger problems than where you are on the list...unless you have a few million dollars laying around. Say hi to Conrad for me.:lol:
 
CactusPilot1 said:
Well, that's ripe.Of course no pun or sarcasm intended. Now that that failed fake union experiment has meant the End-of-USAPA you
want to go after non-Usapian associations. It speaks volumes of your character or lack thereof.
 
 
Metroyet said:
HA!!! What BS. You guys are just pissed that you don't have a ball to take and go home. Pout all you want, nobody gives a flying fk what you feel, do, or say. You have ZERO honor and even less credibility. I love the pipe dream that the company will keep PHX isolated for you forever. Ever hear of pay protection? They won't touch that with a 10' pole. You guys are pathetic hypocrites that formed nothing but an inept organized crime ring. That's being addressed in another court room and it sounds like little Stevie Bradford is starting to piss his pants at that realization. Marty warned those idiots over and over. Oh well. The founders were the ones insisting upon "unmerged career expectations". They'll get exactly that. Being every us air guys pre merger expectation was unemployment and Wal-Mart, that's where Bradford will be after AOL bankrupts him. Win/Win. Everyone gets what they wanted. :lol:
Enjoy your fishbowl life.
 
end_of_alpa said:
 
 
Enjoy your fishbowl life.
 
I'm enjoying seeing Usapians like yourself being flushed down the bowl you resided after the 9th handed us the plunger.
 
 
end_of_alpa said:
 
 
Enjoy your fishbowl life.
Why wouldn't they enjoy the Fishbowl?  Wasn't that their expectation?  My expectation was CLT, PHL,DCA and I'm okay with that.   
 
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