2015 Pilot Discussion.

[traderjake]

"Nic or nothing" was more than just a snappy slogan to pull in donations.   It was a choice.  

 
So was... 
 
Industry leading DOH contract in 90 days.

 

[nevergiveup]

Those 10 years are on USAPA & you. No one had the authority to negotiate away from the product of the agreed upon process. You people are contemptible cheats, and at some point you will reap what you've sewn.
I/we didn't blow anything.
Don't worry Claxy, everyone understands the dynamics. The BOA really understand, and will deliver (another ) Final & Binding seniority list.
I'm not losing a wink of sleep over it. It's gonna be just fine.

If you truly believe, it will come true! Send Marty a check.

 

[EastUS1]

...... That snappy slogan is: Final & Binding.

 
So, "you'se" have offically retired "This is Sparta!"? 😉
 
cactusboy53: "You people are contemptible cheats, and at some point you will reap what you've sewn." Well, I see fantasies of "karma" are still alive and well though. Interesting thing about "karma"...if you actually believe in it; has it never (for even just a moment) occurred to you to look around at the last decade, and at least consider the possibilty that "karma" might well be a two way street? No matter. Perhaps "you'se" should set up yet another "T minus" countdown clock so that we can all better prepare for your always-promised apocalypse.

 

[Claxon]

Flashback;
 
"MEC Chairman’s Message January 18, 2008
 
This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a Chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday, January 18, 2008.
 
As you know, the US Airways MEC and America West MEC have appointed members of Steering Committees to address the major issues between us, including our issues with the Nicolau award. On January 11, 2008, all US Airways and America West pilots received a letter from ALPA President Captain John Prater, pledging his support and the support of the Association for the steering committee process. We have also received support from ALPA’s Executive Board, and this week, ALPA’s Executive Council is working on a resolution that would financially commit the Association to further funding this important work.
 
For the second week in a row, I have worked with the members of our Steering Committee who are charged with directing this process. These pilots have the responsibility of “exploring consensual approaches that promote mutual career protections and mutual success, as part of achieving acceptable collective bargaining outcomes that improve pay, benefits, work rules, and career security for both pilot groups.” Captain Prater also went on to write in his letter to us that in order to satisfy the requirements for membership ratification, “the proposed joint contract must address the concerns of both pilot groups.” Addressing the negative effects of the Nicolau Award and mitigating its damages is our concern.
 
The Three Man Steering Committee will be meeting next week with their AWA counterparts to determine if there is enough common ground to move forward to a “lock-down negotiating session.” If the discussions next week with the AWA pilots are successful, we would then agree to meet at a neutral location for a period of no less than 10 consecutive days to work through issues important to both pilots groups. I believe it is safe to say that implementing the Nicolau Award and contract advances are important to the AWA pilots. And we know that along with much-needed contractual advances, we need to address and resolve our issues with the negative effects of the Nicolau Award.
The success or failure of our endeavors will fall squarely on whether or not we can address the Nicolau Award in a manner that is acceptable to both pilot groups. We will find out in short order during our lock-down negotiations with AWA if such actions are possible. If they are, we will continue in this process that would also address all open outstanding JNC issues. The final product, if acceptable to both Steering Committees, would then be presented to each MEC for their approval and review. If both MECs are satisfied that the entire package adequately addresses the issues that are important to each, JNC negotiations would resume with management.
 
As you can see, there are a lot of “ifs” in this process. There are no guarantees here, just a commitment on the part of your MEC to engage in a process that might produce something that would be acceptable to you. If it is not, we are no worse for trying. If we fail in our efforts, both pilot groups will resort back to separate operations under their current contracts.
 
So that’s where we are right now. If our meeting next week is successful, the individuals participating in this process (right now, that is our Three Man Steering Committee—Garland Jones, Don Iorio and Rocco Spartano; our Merger Committee; our JNC, including Dean Colello; MEC Vice Chairman Kim Snider and myself) will pack our bags in preparation for the 10-day lock down negotiations with the West pilots. At the conclusion of that lock down, we will let you know whether or not there is anything for your MEC to consider and whether or not there is any chance that JNC negotiations would resume.
 
Until then, all we ask is that you give this process every chance to succeed.
In the meantime, as always, fly safe, continue to look out for each other and thanks for listening."

 

[Claxon]

Flashback;
 
"MEC Chairman’s Message
 
February 8, 2008
 
This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday, February 08, 2008.
 
After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counterproposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.
 
While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.
 
I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.
 
The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.
Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure. We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require
them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.
 
You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.
 
I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.
 
Thank you for listening. As always, fly safe and continue to look out for each other."

 

[Claxon]

Hypothetical, typically pathetically, conversation with a W west pilot and a E East pilot.

W You East pilots ruined my life.
E   And how is that sir?
W  You did not honor your agreement and you have no integrity.
E   Can you be specific sir?
W  The nic award.
E   Was there a combined contract sir?
W  No, but you stalled.
E  Was there a provision in the agreement that said we had to vote for a contract that included the nic?
W  You have no integrity.  The company accepted the list and you were found guilty of a rhetorical DFR.
E  Was there a provision in the agreement that said we had to vote for a contract that included the nic?
W  The company accepted the list and you were found guilty of a DFR.
E  Why are you then still in the 9 year PHX Fish Bowl?
………………………,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 

 

[cactusboy53]

FLASHBACK: FINAL & BINDING (again).

 

[Phoenix]

FLASHBACK: FINAL & BINDING (again).

You are still trying to argue a "legal issue"..and that in front of an arb... I.E. You are the only one who isn't arguing about "fair and equitable".

Let's see, has anyone chosen to argue legalities rather than"fair and equitable" lately (and lost)... Yes. You might remember a group that argued the west pilot group was not legally entitled to a merger committee (and there was a legal ruling that said as much!!) but because it is fair and equitable for the west to have their own voice, you have a committee!!

Now that you have a committee (not on legal arguments, but on fair and equitable arguments) far be it from me to tell you that you can't persist in a legal argument in front of arbs (that are persuaded by fair and equitable rather than legal rulings, and you don't even have a legal ruling about the Nic.).

Good luck!!

 

[traderjake]

I'm sure the West will take your strategy advice advice to heart.    
 
Did you ever admit you were wrong about the West getting a MC?
 
P.S.   you're flip flopping between legal and "fair and equitable" as it suits your needs it noted.   😀

 

[nevergiveup]

FLASHBACK: FINAL & BINDING (again).

So why can you not bid for the east positions? If it was final and binding, you should sue the company!

 

[cactusboy53]

So why can you not bid for the east positions? If it was final and binding, you should sue the company!

 
You know WYE.  You folks broke your word & walked away from contract negotiations.  You gave LUS management nearly 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in the DOH chase.  You failed to get DOH, you failed to get an "industry leading contract" (in 90 days - no less), you enabled the MOST expensive pilot union in the history of commercial aviation, and you embarrassed yourselves ("Sit down Mike, you're embarrassing yourself.").  You've demonstrated that you cannot be trusted further than you can be thrown.
 
The BOA gets it, and will deliver a new seniority list.  Any questions?  Here's a couple of reminders:
 
[SIZE=12pt]In the matter of: Preliminary Arbitration Board APA/USAPA/AA (December 17, 2014)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]ARBITRATOR JAVITS: All three lists. I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list? ….. And American pilots. And, therefore, you're making a proposal, which may be different than what Nicolau had in mind[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]and issued back in '07.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]MR. FREUND (in closing):As the Chairman put it so nicely in his questioning of Jess Pauley, what the US -- what the East Committee, the US Airways Committee, the USAPA[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Committee, call it what you want, what it wants to do is to put itself in the place of George Nicolau and redo what George did in 2007.[/SIZE]
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013[/SIZE]

 

[EastUS1]

 
 
You know WYE.  You folks broke your word & walked away from contract negotiations. 

 
In the world of even halfway sane adults; that's called politics. In the strange little world of PHX "pilots"; the only apparently possible response was to fantasize "you'se" selves "heroic" widdle "soldiers"/"battle"-tested-"knights"...only laughably supposed "patriots" (and even "dire wolves"..Oh my!)....How's all that time wasted, exuberantly wallowing away in some chidlish widdle Fantasyland actually worked out for "you'se"?
 
I'd again offer the kindly suggestion to actually Grow Up to "you'se", but history's proven that it would be a complete waste of time to even try.

 

[nic4us]

 
....How's all that time wasted, exuberantly wallowing away in some chidlish widdle Fantasyland actually worked out for "you'se"?
 
 

 
Worked out as best as it could being the West was under attack by a hostile scab union.
 
However, in the big picture, if you consider that for and entire decade, the West made much more money, on much better work rules, while keeping the scab union from allowing east pilots to come into Phoenix....well then I would say it worked out great!!  BTW, although it is equalizing fast, you do realize the West is still the highest paid pilot group under the MOU right?
 
I would venture a guess, at least 50 ( really more like 150) of the top 517 would have loved to have flown out of PHX, maybe even 757 to HI, at much better pay than they were getting.....too bad the van by the river gang hosed them out of at least a $1/4 million in earnings and likely more than a $1/2 million.
 
When the BOA issues the combined SLI, and the LCC pilots are still in Nic order,  I would go even further and say, not only did it work great, it worked M A R V E L O U S...!!! 

 

[nic4us]

So why can you not bid for the east positions? If it was final and binding, you should sue the company!

 
Same reason you can't bid positions in PHX.
 
Now post 2005 hires, they are a different story.  
 
Gee...I wonder how the BOA will consider the fact that pilots hired post merger, yet lucky enough to get PHX are segregated from their class mates?
 
My bet....Nic is still the only accepted system seniority list for LCC pilots, with DOH order of all post merger hires.

 

[EastUS1]

My bet....Nic is still the only accepted system seniority list for LCC pilots, with DOH order of all post merger hires.

 
Just curious here: How do "you'se" manage to wrap your tiny "mind" around both those notions being fully appropriate? = DOH for after merger people, but really and truly "special" treatment for hopelessly infantile idiots like yourself?
 
Apparently, DOH's just fine for other mere mortals in your estimation, but "you'se" are personally, somehow, truly "special"?
 
Kindly explain that entirely illogical schism in "reasoning", since we could always use some more laughs around here. 😉
 
P.S. Do "you'se" have any "Integrity Matters" T-shirts that aren't saturated with insanely infantile drool? "You'se" being of some self-fantasized ubermensch gene pool, and no doubt at least a Harvard grad; I'll of course expect some gentle handling of your obvious inferiors here by way of response. 🙂