2015 Pilot Discussion.

[Claxon]

Worked out as best as it could being the West was under attack by a hostile scab union.
 
However, in the big picture, if you consider that for and entire decade, the West made much more money, on much better work rules, while keeping the scab union from allowing east pilots to come into Phoenix....well then I would say it worked out great!!  BTW, although it is equalizing fast, you do realize the West is still the highest paid pilot group under the MOU right?
 
I would venture a guess, at least 50 ( really more like 150) of the top 517 would have loved to have flown out of PHX, maybe even 757 to HI, at much better pay than they were getting.....too bad the van by the river gang hosed them out of at least a $1/4 million in earnings and likely more than a $1/2 million.
 
When the BOA issues the combined SLI, and the LCC pilots are still in Nic order,  I would go even further and say, not only did it work great, it worked M A R V E L O U S...!!!

Average Annual Wages and Salaries - PILOT AND CO-PILOT PERSONNEL
NO ADJUSTMENTS MADE
1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
American $ 112,190 $ 116,470 $ 131,651 $ 137,971 $ 130,099 $ 132,477 $ 123,244 $ 126,335 $ 130,019 $ 129,947 $ 137,734 $ 138,290 $ 138,743 $ 138,792 $ 137,482 $ 139,872 $ 139,963 $ 140,689 $ 147,312 $ 151,558
Continental $ 90,461 $ 108,561 $ 124,152 $ 154,401 $ 161,395 $ 166,752 $ 163,624 $ 136,686 $ 140,028 $ 145,061 $ 128,724 $ 123,618 $ 133,318 $ 136,253 $ 150,211 $ 156,458 $ 178,727 $ - $ - $ -
Delta $ 129,315 $ 134,016 $ 131,249 $ 121,885 $ 143,880 $ 150,549 $ 185,982 $ 173,365 $ 197,380 $ 209,330 $ 155,532 $ 127,268 $ 128,756 $ 125,616 $ 132,374 $ 142,801 $ 150,099 $ 158,227 $ 181,804 $ 193,555
Northwest $ 154,635 $ 131,641 $ 126,107 $ 142,578 $ 128,100 $ 134,441 $ 138,427 $ 148,084 $ 161,931 $ 169,208 $ 143,618 $ 117,556 $ 132,009 $ 120,798 $ 146,675 $ - $ - $ - $ - $ -
United $ 135,728 $ 146,249 $ 147,212 $ 135,886 $ 117,920 $ 132,126 $ 138,627 $ 184,429 $ 116,998 $ 132,010 $ 115,242 $ 114,985 $ 115,711 $ 119,460 $ 125,465 $ 124,228 $ 125,690 $ 143,076 $ 164,581 $ 185,430
US Airways $ 127,154 $ 132,437 $ 135,623 $ 135,762 $ 128,722 $ 119,513 $ 157,090 $ 153,587 $ 154,638 $ 132,741 $ 120,124 $ 91,419 $ 103,487 $ 113,851 $ 111,329 $ 110,199 $ 109,535 $ 118,240 $ 121,069 $ 157,127
America West $ 77,093 $ 82,589 $ 86,289 $ 85,117 $ 75,045 $ 99,221 $ 99,301 $ 92,148 $ 92,111 $ 100,269 $ 101,279 $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ -
--sub Network $ 124,353 $ 128,147 $ 132,550 $ 134,301 $ 129,881 $ 136,773 $ 146,041 $ 150,515 $ 145,082 $ 150,572 $ 133,466 $ 120,889 $ 126,615 $ 127,031 $ 133,979 $ 136,685 $ 142,089 $ 144,378 $ 160,495 $ 175,846
Southwest $ 107,109 $ 106,862 $ 110,905 $ - $ 109,958 $ 110,601 $ 112,259 $ 117,558 $ 130,069 $ 144,511 $ 157,420 $ 165,882 $ 167,112 $ 172,750 $ 176,726 $ 192,289 $ 203,196 $ 187,551 $ 194,598 $ 197,782
jetBlue $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 22,132 $ 56,644 $ 93,332 $ 93,532 $ 95,841 $ 96,734 $ 98,927 $ 105,893 $ 107,647 $ 124,680 $ 140,546 $ 139,744 $ 139,687 $ 147,109 $ 148,428
AirTran $ 54,838 $ 65,770 $ 68,926 $ 75,335 $ 85,709 $ 89,593 $ 98,055 $ 95,809 $ 96,527 $ 99,311 $ 100,952 $ 104,265 $ 108,549 $ 128,225 $ - $ - $ -
Frontier $ - $ - $ - $ 27,592 $ 29,091 $ 37,516 $ 102,065 $ 109,865 $ 110,417 $ 112,256 $ 99,879 $ 102,726 $ 108,905 $ 107,707 $ 96,119 $ 101,126 $ 113,250 $ 116,122 $ 116,366 $ 125,811
Virgin America $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 73,576 $ 63,993 $ 75,869 $ 92,070 $ 106,630 $ 134,541
--sub LCC $ 104,933 $ 102,696 $ 90,662 $ 42,482 $ 94,394 $ 93,100 $ 103,964 $ 110,930 $ 118,997 $ 129,200 $ 134,414 $ 138,041 $ 140,335 $ 141,328 $ 147,776 $ 157,991 $ 167,612 $ 168,703 $ 175,162 $ 178,560
Alaska $ 104,893 $ 106,838 $ 114,791 $ 52,344 $ 52,773 $ 132,140 $ 141,808 $ 151,734 $ 163,211 $ 160,974 $ 145,953 $ 129,620 $ 130,022 $ 132,877 $ 163,096 $ 150,061 $ 153,530 $ 155,024 $ 159,858 $ 159,839
Hawaiian $ 74,565 $ 75,803 $ 79,762 $ 76,402 $ 1,859,096 $ 79,289 $ 90,924 $ 111,463 $ 105,289 $ 121,216 $ 132,782 $ 125,350 $ 126,812 $ - $ 117,351 $ 120,097 $ 117,354 $ 119,225 $ 134,667 $ 145,434
Allegiant $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ - $ 47,559 $ 47,861 $ 56,870 $ 65,419 $ 83,839 $ 89,398 $ 87,993 $ 91,712 $ 94,616
-- sub Other $ 98,089 $ 100,372 $ 107,795 $ 54,637 $ 61,422 $ 119,120 $ 130,189 $ 142,453 $ 146,566 $ 147,649 $ 132,102 $ 121,036 $ 118,392 $ 118,887 $ 137,507 $ 131,830 $ 133,707 $ 134,423 $ 141,709 $ 143,591
Total All Sectors $ 122,702 $ 125,956 $ 129,090 $ 127,624 $ 123,509 $ 132,567 $ 141,695 $ 145,965 $ 141,849 $ 147,394 $ 133,569 $ 124,080 $ 129,065 $ 129,802 $ 137,194 $ 141,306 $ 147,610 $ 149,640 $ 162,922 $ 174,655
Note: Shaded data means data appear questionable.
Data Source: US DOT Form 41 via BTS, Schedule P6 & P10.

 

[EastUS1]

My bet....Nic is still the only accepted system seniority list for LCC pilots, with DOH order of all post merger hires.

 
I'm sorry for repeating this, but it's the best laugh I've had from "sparta" in awhile. Exactly what is it about "you'se" personally that's so incredibly twisted so's to feel that DOH's just fine for all who come after you, but that you're somehow, personally "above" such a notion yourself? 😉
 
"with DOH order of all post merger hires"...? See, here's the rub with that: by your even endorsing the notion that just 'cause "you'se" came around first; "you'se" should fo course be senior; you're also endorsing the very concept of actually earned seniority, yet you would cheerfully set that same logic aside where you personally are concerned for purel your own benefit? Most amusing. Please DO even try to explain any/all "logic" within even your own utterly insane BS, if you can....? We really could always use some more chuckles around here, ...So?

 

[Claxon]

 
I'm sorry for repeating this, but it's the best laugh I've had "sparta" in awhile. Exactly what is it about "you'se" personally that's so incredibly twisted so's to feel that DOH's just fine for all who come after you, but that you're somehow, personally "above" such a notion yourself? 😉
 
Please Do even try to explain any/all "logic" within even your own utterly insane BS, if you can....? We really could always use some more chuckles around here, ...So?

Same reason you can't bid positions in PHX.
 
Now post 2005 hires, they are a different story.  
 
Gee...I wonder how the BOA will consider the fact that pilots hired post merger, yet lucky enough to get PHX are segregated from their class mates?
 
My bet....Nic is still the only accepted system seniority list for LCC pilots, with DOH order of all post merger hires.

Nobody wants to bid PHX. It will obviously be pulled down in a few yrs. Until it is drained, it will remain a stagnant FISHBOWL.

 

[nevergiveup]

You know WYE.  You folks broke your word & walked away from contract negotiations.  You gave LUS management nearly 3/4 of a BILLION dollars in the DOH chase.  You failed to get DOH, you failed to get an "industry leading contract" (in 90 days - no less), you enabled the MOST expensive pilot union in the history of commercial aviation, and you embarrassed yourselves ("Sit down Mike, you're embarrassing yourself.").  You've demonstrated that you cannot be trusted further than you can be thrown.
 
The BOA gets it, and will deliver a new seniority list.  Any questions?  Here's a couple of reminders:
 

In the matter of: Preliminary Arbitration Board APA/USAPA/AA (December 17, 2014)
 
ARBITRATOR JAVITS: All three lists. I guess the gravamen of the questions is are you then putting yourself in the place of Nicolau, are you the new Nicolau because you are proposing a list which may not reflect Nicolau's list? ….. And American pilots. And, therefore, you're making a proposal, which may be different than what Nicolau had in mind
and issued back in '07.
 
MR. FREUND (in closing):As the Chairman put it so nicely in his questioning of Jess Pauley, what the US -- what the East Committee, the US Airways Committee, the USAPA

Committee, call it what you want, what it wants to do is to put itself in the place of George Nicolau and redo what George did in 2007.
 
 
“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”
 
Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer

Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013

Snicker!

 

[nic4us]

 
Just curious here: How do "you'se" manage to wrap your tiny "mind" around both those notions being fully appropriate? = DOH for after merger people, but really and truly "special" treatment for hopelessly infantile idiots like yourself?
 
Apparently, DOH's just fine for other mere mortals in your estimation, but "you'se" are personally, somehow, truly "special"?
 
Kindly explain that entirely illogical schism in "reasoning", since we could always use some more laughs around here. 😉
 
P.S. Do "you'se" have any "Integrity Matters" T-shirts that aren't saturated with insanely infantile drool? "You'se" being of some self-fantasized ubermensch gene pool, and no doubt at least a Harvard grad; I'll of course expect some gentle handling of your obvious inferiors here by way of response. 🙂

 
Easy Peasy...(that is Ivy League talk of the "ubermensch" when dealing with simple facts and simpletons)
 
Fact one....You..I.. and all LCC pilots had the same DOH in 2005.  The conundrum was how to arrange our seniority order, not our DOH, as we were all the same.
 
Fact two..... the only list in the LCC merger that was DOH was the West list.  Further, the APA does not bring a DOH list today, and for the second time neither does the east.
 
Fact three....Post merger hires seniority was spelled out in the TA and now the MOU, and it mirrors all the seniority list principals we all brought which is first in is first on the list.
 
Fact four....you are full of BS with your I am doing it for the junior guys attitude.  If you are a '86 hire, you got zero room to talk because you are the junior guy, and it is all self centered motivation that drove your desire to support the scab union when we were LCC.  Now a guy like Busdriver in the top 517, now that is a different story, but a junior '86 hire...give it a rest!
 
 
Prediction base on facts....the BOA will issue an award that merges the Nic+post LCC merger hires, with the AAPSIC list and add the new hires post AAL merger on the bottom of of that.
 
Get it?  We all have the same DOH in 2015 at AAL.  Equipment and status (=career expectation) with reference to longevity will determine the seniority order at AAL(the Nic does that for LCC pilots) then post merger hires will be added in DOH order.

 

[nic4us]

Nobody wants to bid PHX. It will obviously be pulled down in a few yrs. Until it is drained, it will remain a stagnant FISHBOWL.

 
Speak for yourself there junior.  I carry native pilots all the time to there LA bases.  They live in PHX.  Can't wait to bid into PHX.
 
Too bad the couple dozen east pilots who live here, and the hundreds that live in DEN, SLC, LAX, SFO, SAN, LAS got screwed out of PHX and a big raise so the scab union could run separate ops in violation of the TA.  Only cost them $1/2 million each, and thousands of hours of commute time away from their families.

 

[luvthe9]

Speak for yourself there junior.  I carry native pilots all the time to there LA bases.  They live in PHX.  Can't wait to bid into PHX.
 
Too bad the couple dozen east pilots who live here, and the hundreds that live in DEN, SLC, LAX, SFO, SAN, LAS got screwed out of PHX and a big raise so the scab union could run separate ops in violation of the TA.  Only cost them $1/2 million each, and thousands of hours of commute time away from their families.

Fact.......you chose to stay locked in PHX, run along now junior and go pound sand, oh wait a minute take a few more laps around the fishbowl.



PS ......send Marty more money

 

[Phoenix]

Everybody wants to live in PHX.. Who knew!

 

[EastUS1]

 
Fact one....You..I.. and all LCC pilots had the same DOH in 2005.  The conundrum was how to arrange our seniority order, not our DOH, as we were all the same.

 
Fact one: "You'se" are as sadly delusional a case as I've yet seen, who clearly manipulates any sane notions of reality around  into whatever twisted fashion you feel best serves your selfish purposes.
 
nic4us: "Easy Peasy...(that is Ivy League talk of the "ubermensch" when dealing with simple facts and simpletons)" Actually no, it's not. Fact two: I can assure "you'se" that your latest fantasy of possessing even marginally adequate intellect stands squarely alongside those of being a "spartan"/"soldier"/"knight"/"dire wolf"/etc, and has equal validity, unless of course "you'se" can expand on and sanely explain your following fantasy: nic4us: "You..I.. and all LCC pilots had the same DOH in 2005"....Well? Drop the infantile T-shirts, dispense with the flitting hands and lisp and try to give that your best shot.
 
P.S. Please DO run the same absurd fantasy by the legacy American folks, with special emphasis on the "Fact" that they were all evidently just hired the very day of this latest merger....and get back to us on how well that's accepted as even slightly seeming at all "reasonable". I've no doubt that just the "we were all the same" portion of your strange little fantasy world would provide them many laughs. nic4us:"Get it?  We all have the same DOH in 2015 at AAL." Sigh...I've serious doubts that "you'se" could've gotten a job at American if your life had depended on it.

 

[traderjake]

 Fact.......you chose to stay locked in PHX, run along now junior and go pound sand, oh wait a minute take a few more laps around the fishbowl.

 
A liar and a moron.  

 

[nic4us]

 
...I've serious doubts that "you'se" could've gotten a job at American if your life had depended on it.

 
 
Your statement is true...prior to 2014 I could not have gotten a job at the New American....duh, cause it did not exist yet.
 
Same holds true for LCC....you did not work for LCC prior to 2005.  
 
You worked for an about to go belly up shiithole of an airline whose only worth was in its real estate presence (i.e. not ownership) that allowed a much smaller airline to buy it, reorganize its structure to drastically reduce operating cost.  Then LCC, working with a great advantage in labor cost because of a scab union's formation, turned record profits for most of its short history.
 
Got a little new flash for you.   Being the lowest paid, worst career earning expectation group is gonna hurt in the latest SLI.  You should thank God Nic is gonna lessen the blow for a marginally senior guy like yourself. 

 

[nic4us]

Fact.......you chose to stay locked in PHX, run along now junior and go pound sand, oh wait a minute take a few more laps around the fishbowl.



PS ......send Marty more money

 
We chose not to give an inch to a scab union.....now run along junior.

 

[EastUS1]

 
 
Your statement is true...prior to 2014 I could not have gotten a job at the New American....duh, cause it did not exist yet.

 
What pathetic and wholly rancid BS. That childish nonsense is entirely typical of your standard delusions and amounts to nothing more than mindless arrogance without the slightest substance. How sadly, but predictably "spartan" of you. American Airlines certainly existed long before AWA, so why didn't you get a job with them instead? The truth is that "you'se" are at best a marginally "qualified" creature that simply couldn't do any better than AWA on your best day ever....Period.
 
If that caustic observation's at all in error; kindly list for us all the (or even so much as one) other airline(s) that accepted you for employment...?  Well?

 

[Claxon]

Speak for yourself there junior.  I carry native pilots all the time to there LA bases.  They live in PHX.  Can't wait to bid into PHX.
 
Too bad the couple dozen east pilots who live here, and the hundreds that live in DEN, SLC, LAX, SFO, SAN, LAS got screwed out of PHX and a big raise so the scab union could run separate ops in violation of the TA.  Only cost them $1/2 million each, and thousands of hours of commute time away from their families.

No, it did not cost them that figure. Most out earned your types in spades over THEIR careers.
( see your Ivy League reference error above)
You had no profit share or DC plan until east pilots lifted you out of the awa swamp.
PBGC? Do the math. 45k a yr on average. More if you wait.
20 yrs of that =900k you will never see.
You are a simpleton who purposely omits facts on a regular basis.

 

[Claxon]

We chose not to give an inch to a scab union.....now run along junior.

Going on 10 yrs you junior 2004 hires screwed awa seniors out of the 330 pay.